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Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

nytimes.com

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Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#11

Post by mmckeen »

jareklupinski wrote: post #7
hkaly wrote: post #3

Irony is Facebook will not attract the talent it needs to work constructively on these unsolvable problems. It will attract thd clueless and the most ambitious. People who are ready to defend it for their own profit. Its a trap where the hole they are in just keeps growing deeper.

Engineers used to be offered an "Iron Ring" (or other similar token) to symbolize their responsibility to human welfare, even at the cost of personal achievement/merit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring Maybe we have to teach some of these upstarts about Therac-25 and depress another generation just to keep the harm from spreading :(

This still happens in Canada I believe

Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#12

Post by __turbobrew__ »

mmckeen wrote: post #11
jareklupinski wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineers used to be offered an "Iron Ring" (or other similar token) to symbolize their responsibility to human welfare, even at the cost of personal achievement/merit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring Maybe we have to teach some of these upstarts about Therac-25 and depress another generation just to keep the harm from spreading :(

This still happens in Canada I believe

Yes, it does

Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#13

Post by MikeTheGreat »

jareklupinski wrote: post #7
hkaly wrote: post #3

Irony is Facebook will not attract the talent it needs to work constructively on these unsolvable problems. It will attract thd clueless and the most ambitious. People who are ready to defend it for their own profit. Its a trap where the hole they are in just keeps growing deeper.

Engineers used to be offered an "Iron Ring" (or other similar token) to symbolize their responsibility to human welfare, even at the cost of personal achievement/merit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring Maybe we have to teach some of these upstarts about Therac-25 and depress another generation just to keep the harm from spreading :(

It's possible that United States engineers still do this... but software "engineering" is famously (and self-deprecating-ly) not really "real engineering".

I say this as someone who programs, teaches programming/computer science, and has worked professionally as a software development engineer - the comment isn't made to denigrate anyone, but because software "engineering" doesn't have any certification / professional credentialing that "real" engineering (e.g., civil engineering) apparently does have.

Also - I'm curious about how effective it is to tell the engineers to do the right thing (even at the expense of personal gain). It seems like the people most responsible for making decisions that build harmful products aren't the ones who are actually tasked with building the harmful products. Does anyone have any information about how effective such training / indoctrination is in preventing bad situations from happening?

Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#14

Post by praptak »

aogaili wrote: post #10
DSingularity wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smart people want money and prestige. There is always a perspective to justify anything. They will sleep fine at night.

"Smart people want money and prestige." I'd question your definition of the word smart in this context.

Facebook is fine with this weaker definition.

Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#15

Post by dogorman »

mmckeen wrote: post #11
jareklupinski wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineers used to be offered an "Iron Ring" (or other similar token) to symbolize their responsibility to human welfare, even at the cost of personal achievement/merit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring Maybe we have to teach some of these upstarts about Therac-25 and depress another generation just to keep the harm from spreading :(

This still happens in Canada I believe

I know an American civil engineer who has one of these rings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer%27s_Ring

Wikipedia says the oath that goes with it is:

I am an Engineer.

In my profession I take deep pride. To it I owe solemn obligations.

As an engineer, I, (full name), pledge to practice Integrity and Fair Dealing, Tolerance, and Respect, and to uphold devotion to the standards and dignity of my profession, conscious always that my skill carries with it the obligation to serve humanity by making best use of the Earth's precious wealth.

As an engineer, I shall participate in none but honest enterprises. When needed, my skill and knowledge shall be given without reservation for the public good.

In the performance of duty, and in fidelity to my profession, I shall give the utmost.

---

I get the impression this ring is not for "software engineers". I really dislike that term, I call myself a computer programmer to anybody who asks, regardless of the title my employer flatters me with. I think "software engineer" is leaching off the social prestige real engineers have earned for their professions. Prestige the software industry in general does not yet deserve. Programmers take jobs making shitty socially harmful products then deflect all blame to their employers, denying their own responsibility to society that oath describes.

I am sure there are some programmers who deserve it, but by in large, the term is used by companies to flatter code monkeys making gambling apps, spyware, social media skinner boxes, etc. I am not without sin here, so I refuse to call myself an engineer.

Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#16

Post by tablespoon »

jareklupinski wrote: post #7
hkaly wrote: post #3

Irony is Facebook will not attract the talent it needs to work constructively on these unsolvable problems. It will attract thd clueless and the most ambitious. People who are ready to defend it for their own profit. Its a trap where the hole they are in just keeps growing deeper.

Engineers used to be offered an "Iron Ring" (or other similar token) to symbolize their responsibility to human welfare, even at the cost of personal achievement/merit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring Maybe we have to teach some of these upstarts about Therac-25 and depress another generation just to keep the harm from spreading :(

> Maybe we have to teach some of these upstarts about Therac-25 and depress another generation just to keep the harm from spreading :(

IIRC, they do, and it doesn't work. The "Californian Ideology" has a strong hold on the tech world and it's incompatible with that kind duty,

Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#17

Post by tdeck »

dogorman wrote: post #15
mmckeen wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This still happens in Canada I believe

I know an American civil engineer who has one of these rings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer%27s_Ring Wikipedia says the oath that goes with it is: I am an Engineer. In my profession I take deep pride. To it I owe solemn obligations. As an engineer, I, (full name), pledge to practice Integrity and Fair Dealing, Tolerance, and Respect, and to uphold devotion to the standards and dignity of my profession, consc…

Those other engineering professions some harmful things too. Didn't engineers design prisons, casinos, nuclear weapons, land mines, plants that manufacture harmful chemicals, etc..? The only way to believe that these oaths make a difference is to ignore all those things.

Anyway, at my university (CS/computer eng. major) everyone in the engineering school goes through the same induction ceremony that I think had a similar oath. I still have the Wash. U. Engineer's Creed card in my wallet. I vaguely remember that Tau Beta Pi had a similar thing. Honestly, I appreciate the ideals, but I don't think the oath made folks from my program any more ethical than those from other schools.

Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#18

Post by tablespoon »

> Facebook annotated the reports, appearing to downplay the results. Next to one slide in the research that said “teens who struggle with mental health say Instagram makes it worse,” the company added that the headline was imprecise. Instead, it wrote, “The headline should be clarified to be: ‘Teens who have lower life satisfaction more likely to say Instagram makes their mental health or the way they feel about themselves worse than teens who are satisfied with their lives.’”

I suppose "teens who are satisfied with their lives" exist, but I didn't know many as a teenager.

Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#19

Post by jareklupinski »

MikeTheGreat wrote: post #13
jareklupinski wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineers used to be offered an "Iron Ring" (or other similar token) to symbolize their responsibility to human welfare, even at the cost of personal achievement/merit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring Maybe we have to teach some of these upstarts about Therac-25 and depress another generation just to keep the harm from spreading :(

It's possible that United States engineers still do this... but software "engineering" is famously (and self-deprecating-ly) not really "real engineering". I say this as someone who programs, teaches programming/computer science, and has worked professionally as a software development engineer - the comment isn't made to denigrate anyone, but because software "engineering" doesn't have any certification / professiona…

one thing that I found works: religion. ask the engineer about to enter the arena what they would like to do with the money they hope to achieve, their end-goals, etc.

then follow-up with whether they would feel morally/spiritually at peace with their choices and methods after the fact (do your ends justify your means?)

in my experience, the people with the IQ to earn a yacht responsibly end up settling for a speedboat anyway.

Re: Facebook Struggles to Quell Uproar over Instagram’s Effect on Teens

#20

Post by LurkingPenguin »

DSingularity wrote: post #6
numair wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re aware that the NYT collects millions from Facebook in an invite-only revenue deal[1], right? The fact of the matter is, they’re so arrogant that these sort of articles don’t bother them at all . The whole faux-outrage thing and the song-and-dance with regulators is just seen as part of the process. Smart people need to stop working at Facebook. Wait a few years, and all of our problems will be solved. 1: https…

Smart people want money and prestige. There is always a perspective to justify anything. They will sleep fine at night.

Not all smart people want money and prestige. Of course, in Silicon Valley, a lot of people assume that if you have money and a network, you must be smart.

When I first arrived in the Valley, a colleague told me:

> One of the reasons so many people stay here and put up with all of the BS is that somewhere along the line, you'll work with somebody incompetent or even stupid and years later, you'll see that they're very, very successful. Which will lead you to believe if somebody that stupid can become that rich, anybody can get rich here if they stick with the game long enough.

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