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Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

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Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#421

Post by NeutralCrane »

gnull wrote: post #346
Zababa wrote: post #314

From the discussion of the PR: > A protected class is a group of people that has been historically discriminated or a group of people we (as humanity) want to privilege to offset the years of discrimination - but that's not all. For example the People of Color are a protected class, because of slavery. Members of board of directors of the big corporations are a protected class because they financially contribute to t…

> Why is the discourse centered around one specific Californian policy? The same person calls it “universally accepted corporate values” in one of the previous comments. I guess it's Americans again ignoring the existence of other places on Earth with their cultures and views on things?

It isn't even Americans. These "universally accepted corporate values" are only universally accepted in a very small sliver of the US. Most Americans' cultures and views are also ignored in these discussions.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#422

Post by awb »

zozbot234 wrote: post #240
js8 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question - are young or old also a protected class? I disagree that CoC clauses should be based on protected classes only, because I think there are possible types of discrimination that should be addressed in CoC.

In a legal context, yes, age is a protected class. So if past practice is anything to go with, I guess quips like "ok boomer" will now be officially verboten on the Ruby mailing lists and in Ruby events.

*Old age is protected.

It’s legally OK to discriminate based on a minimum age, but not a maximum age. No voting, alcohol, tobacco, driving, guns, executing contracts, renting a car etc. until 18/21/25.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#423

Post by klapman »

3pt14159 wrote: post #390
fennecfoxen wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The code of conduct is like HR. It’s there to protect the powerful, not to protect you.

I was the original author of the Pycon Canada Articles of Association back when we were starting it, which included a section on conduct and inclusivity. A code of conduct is not there to protect powerful people. It's not there to browbeat people into being absolutely politically correct 100% of the time either. A code of conduct is something you put together so that everyone involved in the initial organization look…

The whole Python industrial complex (PSF, PyCon, python-dev) has always been extremely hierarchical. CoCs were introduced to protect the old boys and advance their careers at FAANG.

The most egregious abuse of power occurred in the Python NumFocus space, where a couple of highly paid directors defamed a speaker for basically nothing:

https://www.fast.ai/2020/10/28/code-of-conduct/

I have never seen those directors do anything useful like writing software.

The whole Python ecosystem is a swamp full of parasites who need a rule set to oppress the productive part of the population and justify their existence.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#424

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

dym_sh wrote: post #319
brabel wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which countries do you think have no slavery in their history?

those re/formed within last 100 years. (and those who actively deny its existence /s)

You are right. It also depends if you include serfdom in slavery. In any case, just to generalize, the countries that practiced slavery were mostly those that colonized the world the most. Many of those who didn't colonize the world used serfs, like most of Eastern Europe. For these people there is no cultural association between slavery and the present. Also the proportions are different: in most countries the non-serfs were a relatively small minority. So waking up one day and reading that, say, all references to slavery are banned seems somewhat strange in other cultures.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#425

Post by scandox »

The change indicated in the title[1] was made on foot of trolling by the user @hmdne

It's really a remarkable failure of communication. It doesn't appear anyone read what he was saying carefully. They just looked at the first two lines of his proposal and assumed they understood his intent. And then when encouraged he actually made the change. And they actually merged it.

It's amazing that people who are apparently paying such close attention to textual significance, don't appear to have the ability to read his statements with any care.

[1] https://github.com/ruby/www.ruby-lang.org/pull/2690#issuecom...

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#426

Post by heurisko »

banannaise wrote: post #403
okeuro49 wrote: post #386

I raised my eyebrow at a statement in one of the comments in the PR. "This is so that a harasser won't be able to use a meritocracy argument, which as we all know, is dehumanizing..." I don't follow this at all. A meritocracy is what we want to achieve: it doesn't matter about the colour of your skin, sex, or orientation, if you can generate code of merit, then if there is a meritocracy, you should earn the respect o…

The problem is high performers using their performance to justify abusive behavior, either implicitly or explicitly. A 10x engineer who is also an asshole (or a predator) can easily do enough damage to counteract all of his productivity.

If an abuser is using their performance as an excuse to target others, then they aren't enabling a meritocracy, they're acting as a detriment to it.

The idea of a meritocracy itself, is not inherently dehumanising, which was the point that the comment made.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#427

Post by [deleted] »

hallway_monitor wrote: post #119
BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a mild “ha ha” kind of joke I’d expect to see on a joke-a-day cartoon calendar.

Right. Definitely stupid and probably a stretch to call it sexist. Would something like this really get you banned from a mailing list?

[deleted]

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#428

Post by pc86 »

anothernewdude wrote: post #394
3pt14159 wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was the original author of the Pycon Canada Articles of Association back when we were starting it, which included a section on conduct and inclusivity. A code of conduct is not there to protect powerful people. It's not there to browbeat people into being absolutely politically correct 100% of the time either. A code of conduct is something you put together so that everyone involved in the initial organization look…

None of what you describe requires or is helped by having a code of conduct.

IMO (which I think is not a majority opinion, mind you) the biggest benefit of a code of conduct is to prevent the person being disciplined from saying "oh I'm sorry I didn't know" and getting a pass. There are (rarely) times a first offense warrants a harsh punishment.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#429

Post by lcrz »

Locke wrote: post #406

I wish we responded to situations more proportionally. In this case, someone made a joke about women not liking to reveal their true age as they get older. It's a boring cliched joke. Something I've heard too many times in my life (and, most often from women). Is it sexist? I can see the argument. Is it professional to make such a joke on a ruby mailing list? I don't know, perhaps not. Does it warrant responses like…

> Seems a little ironic to use unprofessional language in this situation.

It's not ironic. Forceful language (and rather tame still) is not just as bad as a 'joke'. The offence was not at the unprofessionalism of the joke, but at the contents of the joke. That is what fuelled a discussion.

Removing the line from the CoC also was not a response to the joke. It was a response to the ensuing discussion about the joke.

Talking about proportionality as if the change was brought because of the joke is as questioning the proportionality of WW I to the death of archduke Franz Ferdinand.

The 'verdict' as you call it, does not go into detail about the contents of the joke, because it was irrelevant to the reason of why they made a change. It could have easily been a different joke.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#430

Post by bart_spoon »

phone8675309 wrote: post #59
zkldi wrote: post #6

Not a fan of the "you should educate yourself" retort whenever people ask for definitions. It happens in that Github thread over what a "protected class" entails.

Can't educate myself if you don't give me a pointer. That said, "please help me understand" is sometimes a bad faith tactic to claim ignorance of basic empathy.

Accusing others of "bad faith" has seemingly become one of the most common bad faith tactics around.
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