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S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge from 'Squid Game'

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Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge from 'Squid Game'

#111
post #8

> South Korean lawmakers have spoken out against content providers who do not pay for network usage despite generating explosive traffic It's impressive how this framing has gotten so much acceptance. The content providers are not generating the traffic, the users are, and they are paying their ISPs to be able to do so.

It's quite common datacenter prices to incl. bandwidth and data.

Netflix/youtube cases it's the content providers that server the traffic, so most of it is generated by them. The client requests are tiny in comparison.

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge from 'Squid Game'

#112
post #3

Isn't this what ISP subscribers are supposed to pay for? How big are the operating margins for major ISPs nowadays?

I can't speak to South Korea's ISP market, but in the US the major cable providers are now doing very well.

Comcast is at $18b in operating profit, with roughly 18% operating income margins. Charter Communications is at $9.6b in operating income, with 19% operating income margins. Those are the two biggest cable companies in the US.

In the early decades of cable, profitability was notoriously flaky for the industry. Enormous amounts of required capital investment, and it took a long time to saturate - scale into - the US market. Now the market is settled and they're printing consistently giant profits.

Interestingly Charter has become a giant, worth $133 billion, and Paul Allen used to own a controlling interest in the early incarnation of it. It was part of his so called wired world collection of investments.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/economy/paul-allen-cha...

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge from 'Squid Game'

#113

Similarly, Australia had problems when Netflix was first becoming popular here, putting huge strains on the network and causing widespread congestion issues from 6 to 10 pm. I wonder if we'll ever see a predictive home-caching system; if I watch the first three episodes of squid game in one night, it might be sensible to have my TV download the rest of the series overnight.

At least the Android app does have the ability to do downloads, and I thought it had the ability to schedule downloads for off hours, but I don't have it in front of me so I might be misremembering

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge from 'Squid Game'

#114
I find this thinking just bizarre and displays quite a bit of hubris from the ISPs and/or S. Korean courts.

What's happening here is simple: Netflix is so popular that an ISP dare not block their content. Really, put simply: Netflix costs money to deliver, yes, but it is an expectation of ISP customers that they have access to Netflix. If an ISP were to block/charge more for access to Netflix (assuming that's even legal, but let's just say it is), customers would move to another ISP. Outside of cases where moving to another would be impossible[0], that should be the end of it.

It's interesting to me that the article focuses entirely on the courts getting involved. What's happened is that a business made assumptions about cost (that "unlimited" would mostly be users surfing lower-bandwidth web sites, not delivering video) and the market (all of their competitors likely land somewhere near eachothers' pricing) and discovered that those assumptions were wrong. Instead of either accepting that they are not a commodity that will always chase the lowest price and operating accordingly, they've gone to the courts to have the government require Netflix to reward them for their mistakes.

This idea that as an ISP customer, you "paid for unlimited service at a certain rate" but "don't you dare actually use that unlimited service" is absurd. Watching Netflix, even the vast majority of the day/night, isn't a matter of abuse -- akin to bringing a sleeping bag and living at a 24-hour gym that you have a membership to -- it is what most ISPs are advertising as a reason to subscribe to them. They know they can't turn around and tell their customers (that have choices in service providers) that they're going to charge them for access to something that is central to that service, so they go after Netflix. What if Netflix refuses to pay and just leaves the S. Korean market or decides to say "screw it" and shut the business down (ala Atlas Shrugged)? Would that make S. Korean ISPs service more valuable?

[0] In these cases, they're a monopoly to those customers and should be regulated accordingly; preferably in a manner that brings in an ISP that can handle Netflix traffic without the charges.

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge from 'Squid Game'

#115
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything, customers should be suing ISPs every time they don't get the expected bandwidth. It's the ISP that fails to deliver according to the contract.

I bet there is fine print that says they are delivering exactly according to the contract

You're certainly right, and the specific term here for what consumers should, but generally don't, have is a "Service Level Agreement" (SLA). This is pretty standard for business links and nearly anything at all at the datacenter level, if you ever subscribe to a whole line at a colo you'll probably see that. SLAs tend to spell out not just maximum sustained bandwidth, but 90/95/97/99%, uptime, what if any burst bandwidth is available, any latency guarantees, etc. All of these are different measures that cost different amounts to hit at any given level, and SLAs spell out exactly what is being paid for in numbers that can be monitored fairly easily.

If I could make one simple change to the home broadband market, it would be insisting on a standardized big number consumer level SLA. I certainly don't expect residential rates to cover the same 99.97% or worst case minimum that business class does, that's a major part of what higher end connections are paying for. But whatever they do offer should be transparent, fixed for contract period and measurable. ISPs should by law be required to spell out not just the top line bandwidth level, but also 75%/95% guarantees over a standard time (day/month maybe) and what the worst case guaranteed minimum is. This wouldn't be some big centralized bureaucratic decision about implementations or what numbers have to be hit, but rather merely make sure the market has clear information so customers can compare and ISPs could be held to their promises. Energy Star consumer information might be some guide to layout, but I think something like that would be low hanging fruit.

Also to be clear, a distinction can and should be made for intra-network vs inter-network, and both should be accounted for. Obviously an ISP has the most control and is the most responsible for how traffic traverses their own network to their edges, but ISPs do have some responsibility (affected by size/location) for their peering agreements too. If they're purposefully choking that it's on them, though small/remote ISPs may be at a disadvantage in negotiations there which should ideally have some eyes on it.

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge from 'Squid Game'

#116

The Internet is literally a series of erbium doped tubes, analogous to highway traffic. Videos of cats at high enough bandwidth can melt optical interconnects. For the same reason truckers pay some tax for brutalizing the roads, giant content providers beaming data through these systems must be taxed lest the Internet infrastructure be destroyed and the cost only be burdened by general taxpayers instead of users. (be…

I think in your analogy netflix is more the shop that those truckers are delivering goods to.

So if you want to be more accurate, the proposed payments won't be like a tax on truckers (in this analogy the truckers are the users, or maybe ISPs), rather it'll be a tax on supermarkets and shops that are getting the goods.

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge from 'Squid Game'

#117
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm honestly surprised that any corporations are paying that there, It benefits Netflix in the long term as it raises barriers to entry for disruptive competitors. If, in order to reach an ISP's customers, you have to pay the ISP for the privilege, then creating new startups is harder and the incumbents can just price it in. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this became more common elsewhere, as everyone involved b…

While I see the logic in what you're saying, the Netflix business moat is already much deeper due to A) billion dollar content deals with major providers and B) billion dollar investments into first party content. Content is king and competitors are already priced out long before minor squabbles over bandwidth.

The disruptor may have an answer for the content problem that Netflix never thought of. It's a competition for attention, after all, and if someone else can provide a more compelling alternative than video for people's attention then that will mess with Netflix' business despite its content deals.

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge from 'Squid Game'

#118
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My question is why Open Connect Appliance wasn't even in their network in the first place? By having Open Connect Appliance network gives up ability to traffic engineer Netflix, which may decrease the leverage the network has with its peers or its transit providers. Fundamentally, unless someone must peer with you (settlement or settlement free) and must peer with you on your terms ( locations, types of connections…

No matter what, SK Telecom is going to be eyeball (ingress) heavy and no amount of engineering of Netflix traffic is going to help with that, as it's all inbound anyway. Not that Netflix's upstreams like Level3 or Telia would be peering with SK Telecom anyway. Reducing the amount of Netflix traffic can only help.

Traffic engineering does not just cover what. It also covers where. At the eyeball network level where is way more important than what as what is constant.

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge from 'Squid Game'

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

End users generally don't pay for consuming extra bandwidth, so the injury isn't obvious. SMS spam, though, had a very clear injury when you were charged for the privilege of receiving a message.

Ah but in a backwards twist my ISP now has a 1Tb per month data cap. You’d think this was huge, but I wanted to download all my games to a new Xbox…

That is a failure of Xbox in my opinion. Games are 100gb these days. Massive. My monthly bandwidth is line 400gb. That is pretty common in Canada. We can’t afford to download all the games, again. There should be a local transfer of games done over wifi. It should be made easy.

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge from 'Squid Game'

#120
post #64

> Netflix said it will review SK Broadband's claim, and seek dialogue and explore ways in the meantime to work with SK Broadband to ensure customers are not affected. In other words, they will ship some Open Connect Appliance boxes to the ISP. https://openconnect.netflix.com/en/ And that’s nice for everyone. Some think it’s unfair that big players like Netflix can do so. But I think them doing that is far far better…

My question is why Open Connect Appliance wasn't even in their network in the first place? I mean there are only a few ISP in every country. SK Broadband isn't small either it is something like 25% of market share. If I remember correctly Korean Telecom was 50% and LG was something like 15%. SK Telecom is also the largest MNO is South Korea. And if you are into hardware you may have at least heard of SK Hynix, world'…

> Normally being a Korean conglomerate or Chaebol I would have thought SK must have some subsidiary competing with Netflix. But this doesn't seems to be the case here.

Your guess is indeed correct! Two out of three major ISPs in South Korea operate their own OTT services (Wavve and Seezn). LG U+ is an exception and also the first major ISP to join the Open Connect Appliance program for the obvious reason.

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