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Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

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Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#291

Post by dijit »

eli wrote: post #30
zkldi wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah - no longer assuming good intentions is a weird thing to change. I guess it makes it easier to claim bad intentions?

It makes it easier to fight trolls who hide behind bad faith arguments.

"Did you intend to say that you dislike me because I'm gay?" is a pretty easy way to route out a troll.

Sincere apology or not, you get to know.

I've been moderating communities for 15 years, I've seen tricks from all manner of trolls and handling trolls with an even hand is still tricky; but being genuinely inquisitive is usually the easiest way to get around it. Even when tensions are high it makes people feel heard and understand their impact.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#292

Post by _dain_ »

watwut wrote: post #249
cybrox wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every joke relates to something or someone who is potentially offended by it. By this logic, you have to ban humor.

So lets start making white men jokes in those teams on the regular. And no, in real life, I did not seen all that many of those. There is situation in which everyone mocks everyone. But the situation described here is that some people are valid target of jokes and others simply dont.

What do you mean, "start"? The Twitter feeds of leftist tech people are full of jokes where white men are the punchline.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#293

Post by [deleted] »

pseudalopex wrote: post #169
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The PR author elaborated further in the linked Twitter thread: he believes that a policy of assuming good faith is bad on its own merits because it tends to benefit white men. ( https://twitter.com/JakeHerrington/status/144328685321023079... )

They quoted the start of a thread the author summarized saying it's bad because it gives cover to bad behavior. And can require people who recognize a pattern of bad behavior to persuade themselves they're paranoid. You might disagree. But those points have nothing to do with race or sex. And pointing out it's easier for people who face less bad behavior is about white men only incidentally.

[deleted]

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#294

Post by Ekaros »

thriftwy wrote: post #207
koonsolo wrote: post #185

I think this is a big difference between US and EU. In EU we like to joke around, tease each other, and not get fired over that. When we tell a sexist joke with a woman present, you will get a witty reply from them, not a call to HR. I hope this US bullshit stays in US. Seems that EU women are not victims but can stand their own ground.

I think the best update to that CoC will be kindly asking any person from the USofA to not participate. The rest of the document may be left in any state. Most of problems with harrasment and reactions to it would disappear overnight. The USA does not dominate the contributions anymore, but it does absolutely dwarf anybody else when it comes to shitstorms.

Developers in USA earn more, thus they are automatically privileged group, despite their other protected attributes. Thus they can not be harassed.

A logic we should apply. It only seems fine to tie it all to moneny.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#295

Post by ksec »

koonsolo wrote: post #185

I think this is a big difference between US and EU. In EU we like to joke around, tease each other, and not get fired over that. When we tell a sexist joke with a woman present, you will get a witty reply from them, not a call to HR. I hope this US bullshit stays in US. Seems that EU women are not victims but can stand their own ground.

>I hope this US bullshit stays in US.

It has been spreading to all corners of English Speaking Countries although mostly in Tech ( for Now ) and Open Source.

There are many signs it is growing in EU as well.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#296

Post by ksec »

scotty79 wrote: post #156
google234123 wrote: post #143

Twitter has made everyone neurotic and negative... e.g. very sensitive to perceived insults. Anyway, the same people that push these changes are some of the most hateful people on twitter towards people on the right of the political spectrum.

Is it just Twitter? I think Facebook has its role too.

Facebook often gets its hate due to its political nature of spreading news. But I think Twitter is far worst in these type of social issues where interaction are more "personal".

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#297

Post by brabel »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #199
bawolff wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't protected class an american legal term? Seems weirdly ameri-centric for a document of this nature. Not to mention that gay people weren't even a protected class in the usa until last year afaik. Not exactly a very inclusive definition. Not to mention the implication that harrasment is somehow ok against people who are not members of the protected class? I appreciate minorities get a lot of shit that others don'…

Like it or not, the ameri-centric views spill around the world causing tensions and misunderstandings. In countries with practically no colored people and no history of slavery certain things seem a bit ridiculous if imposed on the whole community.

Which countries do you think have no slavery in their history?

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#298

Post by p2t2p »

jrootabega wrote: post #274
p2t2p wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am fairly conservative libertarian leaning guy made in Russia and even I find this kind of joke absolutely unacceptable in professional setting.

I wouldn't have made the joke, myself, but it's also not really insulting to anyone. It's not saying that women are bad at math, or that women broke date arithmetic to seem younger, it's just referencing that phenomenon. What about a joke where adding weights resulted in quantities too large, and it's suggested that it was written for dudes who want to say they can bench press more than they really can?

Same, I find this joke to be inappropriate in professional settings. May be it doesn’t offend anyone or may be it does, you never know.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#299

Post by jwond »

gbanfalvi wrote: post #271
andrew_ wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're meant to further empower accusers and reduce burden of proof and remove the need for critical thinking, empathy, and nuance. Accusations equal guilt.

Or maybe it just puts more responsibility on people to think "how could my intent be read?", "what impact might it have?" It's quite common to have someone express a personal opinion that they themselves don't interpret as harassment (e.g. because they don't belong to the group they're talking about, they see no issue with the way they talk or maybe they might be upset) only to be incredibly surprised and defensive w…

With the way that the realm of what is socially acceptable to say has been shifting so constantly in recent years, the only way someone who is not terminally online could be sure to avoid offending someone would be to become a mind reader, or to not say anything at all.

There is also the fact that in this modern social climate, victimhood has become a valuable currency. There is incentive for people take offense where none could reasonably be presumed to have been given, and to blow minor transgressions out of proportion.

“When victimhood becomes currency, there are bound to be counterfeiters.“

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#300

Post by odshoifsdhfs »

watwut wrote: post #249
cybrox wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every joke relates to something or someone who is potentially offended by it. By this logic, you have to ban humor.

So lets start making white men jokes in those teams on the regular. And no, in real life, I did not seen all that many of those. There is situation in which everyone mocks everyone. But the situation described here is that some people are valid target of jokes and others simply dont.

I think this may depend a lot in which European country. UK is absolutely filled with self deprecating humour no matter your race or sex.

I am currently at an hotel with an international audience and was part of the daily 'show' a couple days ago. I made the entire audience laugh when I joked about not knowing how to sexually satisfy a woman (I am a white man if it helps).

Think it depends a lot on the general tone. Are women targeted for sexist jokes as much as men and the jokes are free for all? Probably ok. If 95% of the sexist jokes are about women, probably not ok.

But for example, I found that a lot of Eastern European men make sexists jokes that are mean and at the same time, can't take the smallest joke about themselves (or worse, their own sexuality).

Context and culture matters.

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