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Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And so on. Read history; and make up your own mind. I'm of the opinion that this "do your own research" is generally bad advice. One person can be expert in a very limited number of fields, and one of the main advantages of our modern society is that we can afford to have experts in very niche areas. It's much better to recognize who are the actual experts in any given subject, and read their output / follow their…

>> I'm of the opinion that this "do your own research" is generally bad advice. I never used the words "do your own research" and I will very please ask you to not quote me as saying words I didn't actually say. Further, "do your own research" is what conspiracy theorists say. Are you saying that my advice to read Herodotus and Thucydides is on the same level as spreading anti-vaxx propaganda or 5g-conspiracy theorie…

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Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of those are "history" in the sense of academic historical text looking at primary sources. They were all written with agendas, none of which were "document the historical reality of the Spartans".

Really? Herodotus, "the father of history" is not history? Anyway, I suppose I shouldn't be pessimistic and take your one comment as an indication that a random blog post on the internet is treated as a more authoritative source than the original texts from which it -ultimately, though evidently indirectly- draws its information. Edit: >> They were all written with agendas, none of which were "document the historical…

There are many types of history. Herodotus was not writing from any sense of a modern 'academic historical text'.

The evidence is, contrary to what you write, that the author of the series of posts directly comments on Herodotus, and uses Herodotus as a primary source. Eg, in https://acoup.blog/2019/09/20/collections-this-isnt-sparta-p...

> Which brings us back to Herodotus (remember, way back in the first of these, I said we'd talk about Herodotus?) because he isn't just observing the Spartan reputation, Herodotus is manufacturing the Spartan reputation. Herodotus is our main source for early Greek history (read: pre-480) and for the two Persian invasions of Greece. Herodotus' Histories cover a range of places and topics - Persia, Greece, Scythia, Egypt - and contain a mixture of history, ethnography, mythology and straight up falsehoods. But - as François Hartog famously pointed out in his The Mirror of Herodotus (originally in French as Le Miroir d'Hérodote), Herodotus is writing about Greece, even when he is writing about Persia - those other cultures and places exist to provide contrasts to the things that Herodotus thinks bind all of the fractious and fiercely independent Greek poleis. And he is perfectly willing to manufacture the past to make it fit that vision.

> ... for Herodotus, Sparta is the expression of an ideal form of `Greekness' and in Herodotus' logic, being well-governed (eunomia is the Greek term) results primarily in military excellence. For the story Herodotus is telling to work, Sparta - as one of the leading states resisting Persia - must be well governed and it must be military excellent. That's what will make a good story - and Herodotus never lets the facts get in the way of a good story. ..

> Herodotus ...does show up in Assassin's Creed: Odyssey, where he is treated as a famous historian who knows many things. Which is a bit funny, given that the historian of that period, Thucydides, takes a dim view of him.

> And so, Herodotus - the myth-maker - talks up the Spartiates at Thermopylae (you know, the brave 300) and quietly leaves out the other Laconians (who, if you scrutinize his numbers, he knows must be there, to the tune of c. 900 men), downplaying the other Greeks. Spartan leadership is lionized, even when it makes stupid mistakes (Thermopylae, to be clear, was a military disaster and Spartan intransigence nearly loses the battle of Plataea, but Herodotus represents this as boldness in the face of the enemy; even more fantastically inept was the initial Spartan plan to hold on the Isthmus of Corinth as if no one had ever seen a boat before).

> The spin worked. Herodotus' work was well known, even in antiquity, and he set the tone for all subsequent retellings of the Persian wars (despite the frequent complaints by later ancient authors that Herodotus' reliability was - let's say, complicated. I don't want to give the wrong impression: Herodotus is a valuable source, just one that - like all sources - has his own agenda at play).

The blog post series does link to its references, like The Mirror of Herodotus, as well in-line citations like "Hdt. 9.35.2" (one of several explicit Herodotus references), as well as "Thuc. 4.40.2", "Xen. Lac. 4.5, 5.9", "Plat. Lach. 182d-183a.", and many more.

Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#93

If you like this there's a meaty seven part blog series by historian Bret Devereaux about the mythology surrounding Sparta. It offers an account of what Sparta and the Spartan military was really like as well as how the Spartan mythos evolved. https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-p...

Opinion is a big part of history. One historian's analysis is not fefinitive proof rather a view that may be close to the truth.

However, objective truth exists. The simple facts (particularly on their military and economy) undermine quite a lot of the Spartan myths.

Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Helots of Sparta were ritually slaughtered every year by the Spartanite upper-class. That was how one graduated from the Crypteia "school" of Sparta and became a man. And needless to say: when the Helots weren't part of a ritual slaughter by the upper class, they were looked down upon, distrusted, and scapegoated as the ills of Spartan society. Beatings of the Helots were ritual in nature: Helots didn't need to d…

> Hard to have time for poetry if you didn't have time in your youth to even learn how to read / write. The Illiad and Oddyssey were composed and passed down by illiterate bards. Epic poetry has always been a fundamentally oral thing. For examples of this see Serbian epic poetry > Many of the epics are about the era of the Ottoman occupation of Serbia and the struggle for the liberation. With the efforts of ethnograp…

Another example is 'Vadakkan Pattukkal' (lit. northern ballads), in Indian state of Kerala.

Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#95

If you like this there's a meaty seven part blog series by historian Bret Devereaux about the mythology surrounding Sparta. It offers an account of what Sparta and the Spartan military was really like as well as how the Spartan mythos evolved. https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-p...

The article you link is the worst kind of telling of history: overflowing with bias, preaching and pontificating and making moral judgments left and right about things that happenned more than 2000 years ago. It is an internet rant, designed to provoke clicks and outrage, and its only reason of existence is the existence of the film, 300, a fantasy, that presents a fantastical image of Sparta, that the author then pr…

> Read history; and make up your own mind.

You actually have to be pretty careful with this, particularly for the ancient world stuff. The 'historians' of the ancient world were not really historians in the modern context; they were generally closer to gossip columnists. If you uncritically read the main sources on late Republic and early Imperial Rome, say, you'd get some very weird (and contradictory) ideas about it.

Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#96
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all men were gay then is being gay a choice? Serious question.

Willingness to have sex with another male is not being "gay". Attitudes towards gender and sex are not just a new thing, many cultures, historically, have had far more fluid concepts of these things.

We know that prison rape is common in modern times. Could just as well be that in those cultures raping men was normalized and they just had to put up with it.

Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article you link is the worst kind of telling of history: overflowing with bias, preaching and pontificating and making moral judgments left and right about things that happenned more than 2000 years ago. It is an internet rant, designed to provoke clicks and outrage, and its only reason of existence is the existence of the film, 300, a fantasy, that presents a fantastical image of Sparta, that the author then pr…

> Read history; and make up your own mind. You actually have to be pretty careful with this, particularly for the ancient world stuff. The 'historians' of the ancient world were not really historians in the modern context; they were generally closer to gossip columnists. If you uncritically read the main sources on late Republic and early Imperial Rome, say, you'd get some very weird (and contradictory) ideas about i…

Of course. So let me make a further suggestion: read modern historians (or read them too).

I don't know who are the authorities on Sparta and ancient Greeece. But don't get your opinions about those subjects from an internet rant aimed at shocking people who only know Sparta from its depiction in 300 and who can legitimately not tell apart the hyperbole and the fantasy from reality.

Read "history", in general. Don't just read some guy's blog post, even if he's a historian. Even if he's an expert. If you're going to trust the opinion of experts, consult proper scholarly work and read more than one expert.

Does all that sound too unreasonable, or, like an other poster said, like I'm suggesting you "do your own research" (like the anti-vaxxers)?

Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should care about that, if truth is your goal. The original sources have biases, disagree, make things up outright, etc. This is the reason we have historians. To help analyze those sources. The end result often winds up as a book… or an article series. Like this one.

Sorry, but are you saying that the blog posts above are an objective analysis of historical sources, without "biases, [disagreement], making things up" etc? No, seriously, when you read that blog post, did you think "ah, that is an objective analysis of history, without any personal opinions or any attempt to promote an agenda"? Because that's not at all what I thought!

Objectivity is impossible, and no one here is making the point that the author of this series had no personal opinions on the topic.

It's a given that the author of this series has a bias, just like everyone does. Part of the academic tradition is to cite references (as this author does) and present the reasoning behind the arguments (as this author does).

That said, if Herodotus does have biases in his Histories, how would you identify them? Do you think it's fundamentally impossible, because you too have biases?

Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#99
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Herodotus, "the father of history" is not history? Anyway, I suppose I shouldn't be pessimistic and take your one comment as an indication that a random blog post on the internet is treated as a more authoritative source than the original texts from which it -ultimately, though evidently indirectly- draws its information. Edit: >> They were all written with agendas, none of which were "document the historical…

There are many types of history. Herodotus was not writing from any sense of a modern 'academic historical text'. The evidence is, contrary to what you write, that the author of the series of posts directly comments on Herodotus, and uses Herodotus as a primary source. Eg, in https://acoup.blog/2019/09/20/collections-this-isnt-sparta-p... > Which brings us back to Herodotus (remember, way back in the first of these,…

>> There are many types of history. Herodotus was not writing from any sense of a modern 'academic historical text'.

Sure. So read modern academic historical texts, if you prefer- but don't take your knowledge of history from a blog rant on the internets.

The passages you quote make it clear that the author of the blog posts is commenting on sources commenting on Herodotus. He cites Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon, etc, but there's nothing easier than copying citations one hasn't read.

And how can I know that he hasn't read the citations he cites? I can't, but I can know that he's untrustworthy because he makes things up as he sees fit.

For example, there's the case of the Spartiate/Spartan divide. From memory (because that's a long rant and I don't have the patience to read it again) the author is making a distinction between free "Spartiates" and enslaved "Spartans", as if there were two different words with these two different meanings. That is a complete fabrication: the Greek language, both ancient and modern, has one word for "inhabitant of Sparta", "σπαρτιάτης" (female: "σπαρτιάτισσα"). "Spartiate" and "Spartan" are simply different latinisations of the same Greek word, rather than sub-categories of the concept of "inhabitant of Sparta" with slightly different meanings.

At the very least, the author of the blog posts should have made it clear that the distinction between free "Spartiates" and enslaved "Spartans" is his own, but he fails to do so. A reader who doesn't know the Greek language, or the subject of the blog posts, will come away thinking that this is some kind of standard terminology, not something the author made up for his blog posts.

Again, this should give pause. The author straight up made stuff up to put in his blog rant. What else has he made up? Can you say? Can anyone, who takes their knowledge of Sparta and ancient Greece from sources like that blog post, only?

Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to comment on your expertise or about how Spartans actually were, sorry if my rant came out that way. I obviously don't know a thing about you or the Spartans. I explicitly quoted you, not trying to put words in your mouth. I do think that "read [sources], and make up your own mind" is exactly the same as "do your own research". I can't see any difference in meaning there. My commentary was on the tren…

Commenting on this separately: >> I explicitly quoted you, not trying to put words in your mouth. I do think that "read [sources], and make up your own mind" is exactly the same as "do your own research". I can't see any difference in meaning there. This is what you wrote: begin_quote > And so on. Read history; and make up your own mind. I'm of the opinion that this "do your own research" is generally bad advice. end…

I quoted you and then equated that quote with the phrase "do your own research". I think it was very explicit that I didn't put words in your mouth, but brought up that they say the same thing. Then I proceeded to rant why I don't think this is good advice.

If you think there's a difference in the meaning of these two phrases, I can clarify that the rest of that comment applies both to "read, and make up your own mind" and "do your own research" separately.

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