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Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

economist.com

51–60 of 344 posts

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#51

Hm, this seems to be missing the point that plant monocrops destroy the soil and are not nearly as efficient a source of food for the human body as fresh animal meat. Regenerative agriculture, which ideally requires both animal and plant cultivation, would be a better path forward if it could scale. If I remember correctly the papers that originally thought cattle were a big contributor to global warming turned out t…

That article seems highly motivated to marginalize the effects of livestock. Quoting a section:

    While methane is 28-times more heat-trapping than carbon dioxide, methane’s lifespan is just a decade, while CO2 — known as a long-life pollutant — remains in the atmosphere for 1000 years.

    After ten years, methane is broken down in a process called hydroxyl oxidation into CO2, entering a carbon cycle which sees the gas absorbed by plants, converted into cellulose, and eaten by livestock.
In the first paragraph, it says methane isn't so bad because it lasts only 10 years, unlike CO2 which lasts 1000 years. In the very next paragraph it says the methane is broken down into CO2 which is then absorbed by plants and recycled. Wait, you just said it lasts 1000 years.

The next two paragraphs say that livestock accounts for 33% of the total methane released and blithely states that it all gets broken down and reused. If no additional animals are introduced, then net release equals net absorption. That is not very insightful -- eventually an equilibrium will be reached. This glosses over the real data that CO2 levels are rising, it is having measurable consequences, and is pushing control loops to new, worse states.

Citing one article written for the "Farm Business" trade publication isn't as conclusive as you seem to state.

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#52

this is a half-baked ‘solution‘ that just makes eating meat a luxury. a thing only for the rich. it’ll be like crimes that are punished by a fine - they just become the ‘fee’ that allows the propertied class to do whatever they want. beef is deadly for humanity because of destructive water and land usage (Vice had a great video showing the Amazon deforestation due to beef production). edit: my point is that the prope…

> beef is deadly for the planet because of destructive water and land usage (Vice had a great video showing the deforestation due to beef production).

Thanks, for a second I thought you might have to be serious but now I can be certain you can be laughed at in perpetuity.

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#53

It feels like we are headed into a new medieval era of sumptuary laws and moral decrees promulgated by a decentralized international clerical-academic class. I don't think I like it very much

Right. Prices, not arbitrary bans, are the correct way to incorporate externalities in the costs of a product. People are far too happy to promote ad-hoc bans of all sorts of arbitrary things without creating any kind of general incentive structure that would automatically optimize the metrics of interest. The result is malinvestment, economic inefficiency, and global poverty.

The problem is that the externality is set arbitrarily by people who think beef in particular is bad --- it's a sin tax. If you're being honest about pricing emissions, you internalize externalities universally, uniformly, and transparently. An across-the-board carbon tax is defensible; such a tax would likely affect beef. A fee on beef by itself --- that's just disingenuous and moralistic nonsense.

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#54

this is a half-baked ‘solution‘ that just makes eating meat a luxury. a thing only for the rich. it’ll be like crimes that are punished by a fine - they just become the ‘fee’ that allows the propertied class to do whatever they want. beef is deadly for humanity because of destructive water and land usage (Vice had a great video showing the Amazon deforestation due to beef production). edit: my point is that the prope…

If only allowing the rich to eat beef will help save the planet then I'm for it.

the point is that the propertied class will lower wages and raise commodity prices to pay to keep eating an unsustainable amount of beef. instead we should restrict or ban industrial animal agriculture, while investing in educational material to help society transition away from beef. that and regenerative agriculture, agro-forestry, etc.

Ernst Gotsch: https://youtube.com/watch?v=gSPNRu4ZPvE

i don’t want to give my children a dead planet either.

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#55

this is a half-baked ‘solution‘ that just makes eating meat a luxury. a thing only for the rich. it’ll be like crimes that are punished by a fine - they just become the ‘fee’ that allows the propertied class to do whatever they want. beef is deadly for humanity because of destructive water and land usage (Vice had a great video showing the Amazon deforestation due to beef production). edit: my point is that the prope…

If everyone had a private jet with jet fuel subsidized by the government it would also be bad for humanity. It’s currently tolerated as a luxury only for the rich. As an argument for subsidizing something, that doesn’t resonate with me by itself.

We subsidize the meat industry directly, and indirectly by not pricing in negative externalities like it’s carbon expenditure.

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#56

power is fungible. Nobody cares where their electricity comes from. Coal is failing because it is not price competitive. Food is not fungible, so I am not sure what point this is making.

This is any over generalization based on you personal experiences/beliefs.

There are many Americans in the Appalachian area of the United States that care more about where their power comes from than where their food comes from or contains. People in other parts of the world may have different priorities. But most households in West Virginia not only know what type of power is used to run their homes but know the name of the coal mine that it was dug out of.

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#57

Hm, this seems to be missing the point that plant monocrops destroy the soil and are not nearly as efficient a source of food for the human body as fresh animal meat. Regenerative agriculture, which ideally requires both animal and plant cultivation, would be a better path forward if it could scale. If I remember correctly the papers that originally thought cattle were a big contributor to global warming turned out t…

I disagree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_meat_p...

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#58

It feels like we are headed into a new medieval era of sumptuary laws and moral decrees promulgated by a decentralized international clerical-academic class. I don't think I like it very much

Right. Prices, not arbitrary bans, are the correct way to incorporate externalities in the costs of a product. People are far too happy to promote ad-hoc bans of all sorts of arbitrary things without creating any kind of general incentive structure that would automatically optimize the metrics of interest. The result is malinvestment, economic inefficiency, and global poverty. The problem is that the externality is s…

What bothers me most isn't the malinvestment (though that sucks) or a faliure to calculate costs and benefits, but the fact that they're moralizing zealots. A zealot can justify anything in the name of The Common Good

(naturally, they are the ones who decide what The Common Good is)

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#59
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets not forget the transportation of fresh meat is not negligible, the cooling and the fuel costs will add greatly to carbon emissions. Preserved foods and not relying on luxuries such as refrigeration would go a long way to sustainability and heath.

Do you have a source that shows that it's not negligible? The carbon and water cost of 10 calories of grain is pretty large.

https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emis... The EPA site shows transportation and electricity as the main contributions to carbon.

The grains are not the issue, the subsidies in the US are so strong that they are not a real factor. There is so much excess food produced they export it to other countries for instance. https://modernfarmer.com/2019/01/congress-finally-passed-a-n... https://abcnews.go.com/US/dairy-farmers-dumping-milk-amid-co... https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/15/business/milk-dumping-cor... Fresh food is often wasted, and the dumping of milk is to prevent the prices from going too low. This was happening before corona as well, this paper is a pretty good summary from a marxist perspective on overproduction. https://www.e-ir.info/2016/07/07/agricultural-overproduction...

Re: Treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions

#60

this is a half-baked ‘solution‘ that just makes eating meat a luxury. a thing only for the rich. it’ll be like crimes that are punished by a fine - they just become the ‘fee’ that allows the propertied class to do whatever they want. beef is deadly for humanity because of destructive water and land usage (Vice had a great video showing the Amazon deforestation due to beef production). edit: my point is that the prope…

If only allowing the rich to eat beef will help save the planet then I'm for it.

As long as you're aware that you're trading wealth-inequality for perceived ecological gains, at least be honest and sell it that way.
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