100 years later than most mentioned but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cologne_Cathedral is now the largest gothic cathedral.
I was on a trip with my wife, and we had a two-hour layover in Köln (Cologne). We decided to make a run for the cathedral during that time. We sprinted from the airport to the train station, and rode all the way to Hauptbahnhof (central station) which is right next to the cathedral. We got maybe 15 minutes to gawk at the size of that thing before we had to run back to the train station. Definitely take a day to go se…
The biggest churches in the world: Anglo-Norman eleventh-century cathedrals
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Re: The biggest churches in the world: Anglo-Norman eleventh-century cathedrals
#102But why couldn't they draw or paint worth shit? Art from the middle-ages looks like it was done by their six year old kids.
Re: The biggest churches in the world: Anglo-Norman eleventh-century cathedrals
#103I'm fascinated and amazed that 11th century engineering was so advanced. But why couldn't they draw or paint worth shit? Art from the middle-ages looks like it was done by their six year old kids.
You also see this with the painstaking illuminations on books -- the monks didn't just copy the books, they drew, adding their own art, throughout the book. Now maybe they were trained in copying and Latin and not in drawing, but they still drew everywhere they could draw. In the margins of pages, around letters, along the spine and between paragraphs. It was an explosion of art, from the carvings a carpenter would add to the handle of a water bucket to the carvings a smith added to the side of a spoon, or adding flowers to a dresser and turning door handles into bees or serpents, or the thousands of little statues and figurines filling churches. Then we have stained glass -- not even a simple window would do, the window had to be made with hundreds of drawings in it and different colored glass. The floors with different colors and carvings on tiles. Drapery with elaborate figures sown into it. Art, art, everywhere, there was art, only they considered it craftsmanship.
Re: The biggest churches in the world: Anglo-Norman eleventh-century cathedrals
#104One thing that always amazes me was how these cathedrals were build. The techniques were amazing, even more so for the time. And then there is the way those specialized workers and architects were treated and paid. Some of that resembled modern workers rights, e.g. free weekends, limited working hours, safety. I guess it always helps to be part of very skilled, very limited group of workers that is very high demand.
Re: The biggest churches in the world: Anglo-Norman eleventh-century cathedrals
#105The universe became conscious in the form of humans and asked ‘who made me?’ These historical artifacts are a beautiful testimony to this profound question that we can only contemplate for a small amount of time before we turn back into stardust.
Or, more subtly, "who is making me?":
> Distinction: A sequence of changers can be ordered essentially or accidentally. These are called per se and per accidens sequences.
> A sequence is ordered accidentally if each changer in the sequence possesses the power to change another regardless whether any prior changer is still acting. For example: a woman may possess the power to give birth regardless whether her mother is still alive. She possesses the power of birthing in and of her own self.
> A sequence is ordered essentially if each changer in the sequence possesses the power to change another only if a preceding changer is acting concurrently upon it. For example, a clarinet does not have the power to play Mozart's Clarinet Concerto in A in and of itself. It will only play if Sharon Kam is playing upon it concurrently.¹ A mover like the clarinet is called an "instrumental" mover, happily so since the clarinet is literally an instrument! In a similar wise, TOF's very own clarinet will not make music by itself. Unfortunately, it does not seem to make music even when TOF is playing it, although he has summoned ducks in this fashion.²
[…]
> 1. An instrumental changer cannot transmit a change unless a primary changer is acting concurrently upon it.
> 2. An infinite regress has no primary changer.
> 3. There cannot be an infinite regress of instrumental changers.
* https://tofspot.blogspot.com/2014/09/first-way-part-ii-two-l...
You do not keep yourself in existence, i.e., you do not prevent yourself from going *poof* into nothingness. Something "underlies" your existence and keeps you 'going'. And something underlies that, and something… But it has to stop somewhere. A bad analogy: in a sky scraper the 99th floor keeps the 100th floor in the air, and then 98th keeps the 99th, …. But at some point there needs to be bedrock.
The eventual Prime Mover is what theologians refer to as God: that which nothing else can exist without.
Re: The biggest churches in the world: Anglo-Norman eleventh-century cathedrals
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
Belief in being created requires belief in some being (your creator, or their creator, etc...), _not_ being created - the prime mover. Unless you believe in an infinite regress of creators I guess.
Infinite regress of creators sounds the most compelling to me. Wouldn't God also wonder why he exists?
Re: The biggest churches in the world: Anglo-Norman eleventh-century cathedrals
#107I'm fascinated and amazed that 11th century engineering was so advanced. But why couldn't they draw or paint worth shit? Art from the middle-ages looks like it was done by their six year old kids.
They had amazing art. What you may be referring to is the notion of craftsmanship . There was no mass reproduction, but individual people (of all skill levels) made by hand their own art, incorporating it into every day objects and adding decorations to even various bricks that make up a wall or putting reliefs in what (to us) would be random places. This can be seen with a little walk around Venice, for example. You…
I share your appreciation for, say, the 12th century frescos in the Apse of Sant Climent de Taüll [1], but there's nothing remotely good about the draftsmanship in any way. The best of early medieval painters are solidly outclassed by the primary schoolers of the industrial revolution.
Illuminations, you say? Like the famous drawings in the St. Albans Psalter? [2] Or the great Saxon Benedictional of St. Athelwold? [3] No sense of perspective, or even any recognition of a third dimension. And what the fuck is going on with the anatomy?
Would you frame anything from the Babmurg Apocalypse and put it on your wall? The French [4] and the Germans [5] were no better, and things didn't improve in the 13th century [6].
And then, seemingly overnight, the Renaissance happened and we had masters like Michelangelo setting standards for the rest of history. Explain that?
1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apse_of_Sant_Climent,_Ta%C3%BC...
2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Albans_Psalter#/media/File...
3 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedictional_of_St._%C3%86the...
4 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottonian_art#/media/File:11th-...
5 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolingian_art#/media/File:Eb...
Re: The biggest churches in the world: Anglo-Norman eleventh-century cathedrals
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was on a trip with my wife, and we had a two-hour layover in Köln (Cologne). We decided to make a run for the cathedral during that time. We sprinted from the airport to the train station, and rode all the way to Hauptbahnhof (central station) which is right next to the cathedral. We got maybe 15 minutes to gawk at the size of that thing before we had to run back to the train station. Definitely take a day to go se…
It's a miraculous gift to humanity that this thing survived the allied bombing in WWII. Much of the rest of the city was levelled.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Koeln_19...
Notice the bridge just a few hundred meters away.
Re: The biggest churches in the world: Anglo-Norman eleventh-century cathedrals
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was there 25 years ago, went up one of the towers. Was a magical place even though, or perhaps because, it was very much unfinished. Surely it still isn't finished? I thought it was expected to be finished in 2026. Do you have any urls showing the current state? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagrada_Fam%C3%ADlia
I was admiring the Sagrada Familia one day about ten years ago, and was astonished when a chap in a high-vis vest walked past me and started chipping away modifying some stonework with a chisel. He didn't look overly enthused, just getting on with his job. The Sagrada Familia is a marvel, and deserves to be finished, but it was somehow magical to be there while it was (long-windedly) being built, worked on by skilled…
There are quite a few to choose from: Ely, Durham, Canterbury, Winchester, etc., and of course others around Europe.
Re: The biggest churches in the world: Anglo-Norman eleventh-century cathedrals
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's a miraculous gift to humanity that this thing survived the allied bombing in WWII. Much of the rest of the city was levelled.
Too get an idea of just how close we came to losing this treasure, check out this photo of the city after the bombing: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Koeln_19... Notice the bridge just a few hundred meters away.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwy8SzVmWGc
Köln from 2:40