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U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

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Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#201
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal attacks do not belong on hacker news.

How absolutely pathetic is it that the above 3 comments, all showing care and empathy for non-human life, are massively downvoted? The state of this community.

The old guard on Hacker News is comprised of absolutely terrible people.

I was here 12+ years ago and HN has always sucked, but it's been driven into the ground by the mods coddling these goofy man-boy dipshits, whose idea of success is writing widgets at a FAANG in the furtherance of the destruction of society.

I stopped constructively posting here many years ago. It's just too much work to correct the endless list of preposterously stupid things said on this website.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The introduction of the mongoose to hawaii was a big problem for bird biodiversity

There's similar issues with possums in New Zealand, who also have no natural predators there and have flourished. New Zealand wants to eradicate them to save their native birds. But what's interesting is: the same possum is extremely endangered in it's native habitat in Australia because of so many introduced predators. So do you go to war to kill the invasive species, even if that contributes to their extinction? Do…

The common brushtail possum is very common in Australia and far from endangered, if anything it's adapted quite well to urban life. There are other species of possums that are endangered, but they're not the ones in NZ.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#203
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USSR was a communists country. There is a world of difference between Social Democratic (i.e. socialism) countries like Finland, Sweden, Norway for example and the USSR. The hint is right there in the title, democratic. The USSR never had a functioning democracy.

Democracy never made socialism competitive with free markets. Democracy in Seattle led to the government purchase of port-a-potties at $250,000 each and $12,000,000 per mile bike lane striping. All involved were comfortably re-elected. Norway pumps 20% of its GDP out of the ground.

Firstly I was only pointing out your assertion that the USSR was a good model of socialism is wrong.

As to being 'competitive in free markets', I would suggest that is more of a measure of capitalism than socialism.

Socialism is about equality and a better measure of equality would be something like 'standard of living'.

When you look at which countries lead the world on that measure it should come as no surprise Social Democratic nations dominate:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-...

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#204

In theory, species should be going extinct all the time as the climate changes, from ecological changes, invasive species, new species forming, etc. The real question, is the rate of species going extinct increasing? (I believe the answer to that is yes). But the mere headline “species goes extinct” should make us react “yeah, that’s how evolution works”.

Yes, the rate of extinction is increasing, and the consensus is that we're the main cause cause. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction

There has been mass extinctions before, every one of them had their specific causes. So it's kind of how evolution and life works. But we don't need to shrug and do nothing.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#205

In theory, species should be going extinct all the time as the climate changes, from ecological changes, invasive species, new species forming, etc. The real question, is the rate of species going extinct increasing? (I believe the answer to that is yes). But the mere headline “species goes extinct” should make us react “yeah, that’s how evolution works”.

Communication is not programming; every statement is not intended to be taken completely literally. When someone says "species go extinct" there is the subtext "... due to humans destroying their ecosystem." It is not necessary to say that every time, because that would make the the cost of communication too high. Humans depend on having a common ground of shared assumptions to communicate effectively. This is why people do not respond to this headline the way you think they should, and why people who act as if they are not able to read the subtext of a statement are described as autistic.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#206
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>considered a "taking" under the constitution, or should it be? Perhaps, but you'd also have to consider Euclidian zoning to be a taking. And that'll never happen.

Not especially- because generally whenever zoning is enacted, the current land owner gets to decide the initial zone of their property. And land that is already zoned can't be rezoned without the current property owners consent. So the only thing restricted / "taken" here, is if the property owner wants a re-zoning and is denied. Yeah, being forced into the system at all is arguably a violation of rights, but I don't…

Even if that's generally true (which I doubt), it has nothing to do with the legal theory in which Euclidian zoning operates.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Village_of_Euclid_v._Ambler_....

"The court ruled that speculation was not a valid basis for a claim of takings."

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really a fair comparison/ justification. I don't know how much "warning" was given for the endangered species act, or if that even matters, since land that's about to be worthless is already worthless. Also, I have no idea what actually happened in this case. But to speculate/generalize: IBW were already (obviously) extremely rare in 1944, so there would have been an intense amount of pressure preventing h…

Government isnt there to protect every business from ever going out of business. Sorry but I dont see the argument for compensation. By your argument everyone who has planning controls changed in their neighbourhood should be paid out, tobacco companies should be paid for revenue loss due to taxation and government adverts and anyone with a house built next to them should sue their neighbour for overshadowing and tra…

The purpose of taxing tobacco is to discourage consumption. The tax is directly the mechanism for achieving the desired purpose rather than a hardship imposed on some otherwise innocent people only incidentally. It's not a taking, it's a penalty.

When your neighbor builds a house next to yours, that's not a taking because it's not the government doing it. If you wanted to control what got built on a piece of property that isn't yours, you should have bought it yourself, or entered into a contract with the property owner where they agree not to do that for a particular period of years and you compensate them for the restriction.

Governments should have to compensate property owners for zoning restrictions and the like. That makes perfect sense, for the same reason they have to compensate for any other takings -- because you're imposing a hardship on a specific innocent third party for a collective benefit, which is unreasonable. If there is to be a collective benefit then it should be paid for out of the collective fund and not disproportionately imposed on unconsenting innocent people at random. And if it turns out that the cost of compensating the property owners for the restriction you want to impose exceeds the value you hope to achieve by imposing it, that's some pretty good evidence that you shouldn't be doing it -- which is exactly why it should have to be paid out.

The fact that courts decided not to do that with zoning is the whole reason we have a housing shortage -- because now we've over-produced zoning restrictions since they can be imposed without accounting for their cost.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#208
post #4

This is super depressing, it's crazy to see how much the flora/fauna have changed locally in my lifetime. It makes me wonder how much worse it actually is. Is looks like most of these were initially listed in the 80s, not too long after Endangered Species Act passed. Is there some sort of time limit before they officially declare something extinct?

Climate is cyclical. Species come and go. We don't mourn the dinosaurs.

We are too small and insignificant to make any true, lasting impact. Nature will heal itself given enough time, and new species will emerge.

Humans will feel the effects of climate change. The Earth will be fine.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government isnt there to protect every business from ever going out of business. Sorry but I dont see the argument for compensation. By your argument everyone who has planning controls changed in their neighbourhood should be paid out, tobacco companies should be paid for revenue loss due to taxation and government adverts and anyone with a house built next to them should sue their neighbour for overshadowing and tra…

The purpose of taxing tobacco is to discourage consumption. The tax is directly the mechanism for achieving the desired purpose rather than a hardship imposed on some otherwise innocent people only incidentally. It's not a taking, it's a penalty. When your neighbor builds a house next to yours, that's not a taking because it's not the government doing it. If you wanted to control what got built on a piece of property…

> because you're imposing a hardship on a specific innocent third party for a collective benefit, which is unreasonable.

This sums up the American attitude to life better than anyone has ever done for me before.

Re: U.S. declares more than 20 species extinct after exhaustive searches

#210
post #4

This is super depressing, it's crazy to see how much the flora/fauna have changed locally in my lifetime. It makes me wonder how much worse it actually is. Is looks like most of these were initially listed in the 80s, not too long after Endangered Species Act passed. Is there some sort of time limit before they officially declare something extinct?

The Ivory Billed Woodpecker hasn't had a confirmed sighting since 1944. Lots of these species have been long gone. But the landowner of that 1944 sighting probably couldn't turn over a rock on his property without fines and lawsuits coming at him, at least until now. ETA: If I'm remembering the stories right, either the last or one of the very last IBW sightings was doubted by officials, because the guy was a farmer…

Imagine you are a farmer and you actually see an endangered species. What do you do ? Kill it and hide it so that no one finds it. If you by mistake report it, boom, your land is not your land anymore.

Check this report by John Stossel here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubIvbtzVoZM

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