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PostgreSQL 14

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Re: PostgreSQL 14

#241

Post by operator9A »

staticassertion wrote: post #225
The_Colonel wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and most of these love/hate memes are blowned out of proportion by people who don't actually have any real expertise in those technologies, but just parrot whatever they've read in some memes.

You're exactly correct. Tons of "XYZ is bad" because of some meme that they don't even understand or have context on that hasn't been relevant for years. I have no idea if MongoDB is good or bad at this point, but the comments of "haha it's mongo" are completely devoid of meaningful content and should be flagged.

I was part of a team that operated a large Mongo cluster for most of the last decade. I would not have advised anyone to use Mongo as their durable source of truth database then, and I still don't think it's advisable to do so now. On numerous occasions, Mongo demonstrated the consequences of poor engineering judgment and an addled approach to logic in critical components responsible for data integrity. In addition, Mongo internalized many poor patterns with respect to performance and change management. Mongo did not, and does not provide the data integrity or performance guarantees that other databases internalize by design (the WiredTiger transition helped, but did not cure many of the issues).

PostgreSQL introduced JSONB GIN index support sometime around 2015, making Postgres a better fit for most JSON-based applications than Mongo.

Re: PostgreSQL 14

#242

Post by cpursley »

MrWiffles wrote: post #189
mypastself wrote: post #30

Somewhat related, but does anybody have suggestions for a quality PostgreSQL desktop GUI tool, akin to pgAdmin3? Not pgAdmin 4, whose usability is vastly inferior. DBeaver is adequate, but not really built with Postgres in mind.

Commercial, but worth every Penny and then some in my opinion: https://tableplus.com/ It looks good, performs very well, and supports WAY more than just pg. It’s an indispensable part of my dev tooling. Bought it what last year, year before maybe? Very happy customer here, zero problems, all gravy.

Tableplus is fantastic software. I have it open all day every day.

Re: PostgreSQL 14

#243

Post by staticassertion »

operator9A wrote: post #241
staticassertion wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're exactly correct. Tons of "XYZ is bad" because of some meme that they don't even understand or have context on that hasn't been relevant for years. I have no idea if MongoDB is good or bad at this point, but the comments of "haha it's mongo" are completely devoid of meaningful content and should be flagged.

I was part of a team that operated a large Mongo cluster for most of the last decade. I would not have advised anyone to use Mongo as their durable source of truth database then, and I still don't think it's advisable to do so now. On numerous occasions, Mongo demonstrated the consequences of poor engineering judgment and an addled approach to logic in critical components responsible for data integrity. In addition,…

My issue isn't with people not liking Mongo. It's with contentless meme posts. Your post has real information that adds value to the conversation, and I appreciate that you took the time to write it out.

Re: PostgreSQL 14

#244

Post by AtlasBarfed »

kbenson wrote: post #156
TedShiller wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with MongoDB though is that you're on MongoDB

As someone that mostly shared that opinion for the last decade or more, I recently set up a cluster for work, and everything seems much more production level quality than I remember or what I assumed it was going to be like. I'm not the one using it for queries every day, but I did do a bunch of testing for replication and failed nodes to confirm that I understood (and could rely) on the claims of robustness, and it…

Jepsen test suite completely tore them a new one. I don't trust any allegedly distributed database that gets excoriated that badly by Aphyr.

https://jepsen.io/analyses/mongodb-4.2.6

That's just a bit more than a year ago. Come on.

MongoDB is like Mysqldb. I am so so so tired of hearing "that's been fixed, it's great now", doing a paper-thin dive into things, and seeing there are massive problems still.

I used MongoDB with Spring Data, it is impressively seamless.

It's just that there are way too many people who have sold snake oil for a decade-plus now, and I don't trust what they say anymore, and won't for a long long time.

Re: PostgreSQL 14

#245

Post by bfelbo »

nicoburns wrote: post #48
mypastself wrote: post #30

Somewhat related, but does anybody have suggestions for a quality PostgreSQL desktop GUI tool, akin to pgAdmin3? Not pgAdmin 4, whose usability is vastly inferior. DBeaver is adequate, but not really built with Postgres in mind.

I second Postico on Mac. I usually recommend TablePlus for other platforms.

Interesting. I’m currently using Postico on Mac, but considering TablePlus. Why do you find Postico superior?

Re: PostgreSQL 14

#246

Post by bfelbo »

mypastself wrote: post #30

Somewhat related, but does anybody have suggestions for a quality PostgreSQL desktop GUI tool, akin to pgAdmin3? Not pgAdmin 4, whose usability is vastly inferior. DBeaver is adequate, but not really built with Postgres in mind.

There’s plenty of GUI tools, but what about tools for writing SQL inside VS Code?

We usually write our DB migrations in VS Code along with any other code changes, but the PG support in VS Code seems to be lacking. Just some naïve validation of PostgreSQL code inside VS Code would be awesome!

Re: PostgreSQL 14

#247

Post by bfelbo »

MrWiffles wrote: post #189
mypastself wrote: post #30

Somewhat related, but does anybody have suggestions for a quality PostgreSQL desktop GUI tool, akin to pgAdmin3? Not pgAdmin 4, whose usability is vastly inferior. DBeaver is adequate, but not really built with Postgres in mind.

Commercial, but worth every Penny and then some in my opinion: https://tableplus.com/ It looks good, performs very well, and supports WAY more than just pg. It’s an indispensable part of my dev tooling. Bought it what last year, year before maybe? Very happy customer here, zero problems, all gravy.

How does it compare to Postico for working with PG databases? TablePlus seems very similar to Postico, but with support for other DBs, which we don’t need.

Re: PostgreSQL 14

#248

Post by bfelbo »

kevinob11 wrote: post #90
mypastself wrote: post #30

Somewhat related, but does anybody have suggestions for a quality PostgreSQL desktop GUI tool, akin to pgAdmin3? Not pgAdmin 4, whose usability is vastly inferior. DBeaver is adequate, but not really built with Postgres in mind.

TablePlus is the only thing I've used cross-platform that is even close to Postico. Postico is amazing.

Interesting. I’m currently using Postico on Mac, but considering TablePlus. Why do you find Postico superior?

Re: PostgreSQL 14

#249

Post by jiggawatts »

jenny91 wrote: post #211
jd_mongodb wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Posting old Jepssen analyses is like pointing at old bug reports. Everytime Jepsen finds a bug we fix it lickety-split. I know it's not cool to focus on that fact, but it is a fact. The Jepsen tests are part of the MongoDB test suite so when we fix those problems they stay fixed. I would love to hear your personal experience of MongoDB as opposed to reposting old Jepsen reports. Perhaps there is something that we can…

The latest "old Jepsen report" is barely a year old. It's not like digging up dirt from years ago. It also seems like there was quite a lot wrong even a year ago, quoting from there: > Roughly 10% of transactions exhibited anomalies during normal operation, without faults. It's just not a very reassuring response to say "when someone goes to dig a bit and finds a lot of show-stopping bugs, we address those specific b…

Something that was drilled into me decades ago is that there is no such thing as fixing multi-threaded (or distributed) code via debugging or patching it "until it works".

You either mathematically prove that it is correct, or it is wrong for certain.

This sounds like an oddly strong statement to say, but the guy who wrote the textbook that contained that statement went on to dig up trivial looking examples from other textbooks that were subtly wrong. His more qualified statement is that if a professor writing simplified cases in textbooks can't get it right, then the overworked developer under time pressure writing something very complex has effectively zero chance.

The MongoDB guys just don't understand this. They're convinced that if they plug just one more hole in the wire mesh, then it'll be good enough for their submarine.

PS: The professor I was referring to is Doug Lea, who wrote the "EDU.oswego.cs.dl.util.concurrent" library for Java. This was then used as the basis for the official "java.util.concurrent".

Re: PostgreSQL 14

#250

Post by Diggsey »

sudhirj wrote: post #27
buro9 wrote: post #23

Suppose I had a "friend" with a PostgreSQL 9.6 instance (a large single node)... what's the best way to upgrade to PostgreSQL 14?

With downtime, I guess the pg_upgrade tool works fine. Without downtime / near-zero downtime is more interesting though. Since this is an old version, something like Bucardo maybe? It can keep another pg14 instance in sync with your old instance by copying the data over and keeping it in sync. Then you switch your app over to the new DB and kill the old one. Newer versions make this even easier with logical replicati…

pg_upgrade has a `link` option that when used reduces the time take to ~15 seconds.

IMO, that counts as "near-zero downtime".

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