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US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

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Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#51

Post by dhritzkiv »

xwdv wrote: post #20
janandonly wrote: post #3

This is more a discussion of semantics than about the amount itself. The way I read the statistics is that the current debt is $28T of money that is already spent while the quoted debt of $146T is the amount of money needed to be spent to fill full current promises and expenses . It's interesting that since the USA got off the gold standard in 1971[1], and thereby all countries that had a currency backed by dollars,…

Who cares though? Do you really want to keep something like the same pieces of furniture your whole life? Sounds depressing. People like buying new stuff.

If it's nice and in good condition, then yes. Nothing "depressing" about that.

Even if tastes change, styles usually come back around, hence why good century- or MCM furniture is so sought after as antiques/vintage.

It's to be seen if laminate or pressed fibre board furniture will stand the test of time, even if it comes back into style in 25 years. HDPE might last longer, as long as it doesn't discolour or crack.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#52

Post by merpnderp »

mattnewton wrote: post #27
munk-a wrote: post #6

The US National Debt being viewed like a bad loan is a load of BS - that's a sum invested and leveraged against the projected continued growth of the country and, honestly, nobody on earth has the ability to forcefully collect from the US government.

As far as I understand it, it has nothing to do with creditor’s ability to collect but the interest future creditors will be willing to part with their money for. With an institution even a fraction the size of the US federal government, I don’t think people can reasonably collect, and instead the incentive to take care of current creditors is to give future creditors confidence that their investment is safe. Histori…

People often get all full of bravado about this, but they miss your point. It isn't about the money already loaned, it is about the billions a year the US government needs to borrow to stay functional. Scare off investors and they'll find somewhere else to keep their money safe.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#53

Post by heinrichhartman »

mattnewton wrote: post #27
munk-a wrote: post #6

The US National Debt being viewed like a bad loan is a load of BS - that's a sum invested and leveraged against the projected continued growth of the country and, honestly, nobody on earth has the ability to forcefully collect from the US government.

As far as I understand it, it has nothing to do with creditor’s ability to collect but the interest future creditors will be willing to part with their money for. With an institution even a fraction the size of the US federal government, I don’t think people can reasonably collect, and instead the incentive to take care of current creditors is to give future creditors confidence that their investment is safe. Histori…

Who are those creditors? Who set's that interest rate?

It's largely the FED, right? What prevents the FED from keeping the interests low, if the US-Gov does not want to pay?

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#54

Post by megablast »

jfengel wrote: post #30

It's a misleading way of calculating the number, since it refers to all of the future debt obligations, including Social Security out many decades -- but also ignoring the fact that we'll be collecting taxes all that time. It's a bit like concluding that you're a million dollars in debt because you are going to need to buy food for the rest of your life. I suppose it's true -- it is something you need to plan for. Bu…

Wouldn’t the date it runs out of money be pushed out further due to increased deaths during the pandemic?

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#55

Post by cs702 »

This is disingenuous, alarmist, click-bait, bulls**t.

The $28T figure consists of:

* ~$6T held by the Federal Reserve: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FDHBFRBN -- this is money that the government owes, quite literally, to itself, made possible by the independence of the Federal Reserve, which has been buying government obligations to keep interest rates low.

* ~$7T held by foreigners: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FDHBFIN -- this is money that will have to be paid to foreigners, over the long run.

* ~$15T held by US taxpayers, calculated as total held by the public (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYGFDPUN) less total held by foreigners (above).

Thus the US federal government owes $15T to taxpayers. If you have a bond index in your 401(k), then YOU are one of those taxpayers to whom the US government owes those $15T. The federal government owes money TO you. Your share is how much you will receive.

The social-safety-net figures in excess of the $28T are future obligations... also owed to, guess who? US taxpayers. If you expect to benefit from Medicare and/or Social Security in your old age, then YOU are one of those taxpayers to whom the US government owes those future obligations. The federal government owes those obligations TO you. Your share is how much you will receive.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#56

Post by mfer »

seneca wrote: post #37
janandonly wrote: post #3

This is more a discussion of semantics than about the amount itself. The way I read the statistics is that the current debt is $28T of money that is already spent while the quoted debt of $146T is the amount of money needed to be spent to fill full current promises and expenses . It's interesting that since the USA got off the gold standard in 1971[1], and thereby all countries that had a currency backed by dollars,…

> Everything is getting too expensive, and the only reason we don't feel this too much just yet, is because often times cheaper alternatives where available. Dead on. It's pressure from both sides, so to speak. Not only are we paying more for goods, the goods themselves are declining in quality. Furniture is a great example. Another is home appliances. Refrigerators, washers and driers etc have absolutely tanked in q…

> Furniture is a great example. Another is home appliances. Refrigerators, washers and driers etc have absolutely tanked in quality.

We also have a tendency to replace them when broken for simple things.

When I tell people I repaired or had someone repair an appliance in my house they are often surprised. They just think of tossing it and getting something new. Repair isn't even on their mind unless their part of one of the older generations.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#57

Post by RHSeeger »

heinrichhartman wrote: post #34
mschaef wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My parents are in their 70's and they still have furniture that was (second hand) given to them when they got married. Can you imagine an piece of IKEA furniture being used daily and lasting for >40 years? Two answers: 1) Yes. Very, very easily. For at least some IKEA furniture. 2) I somehow doubt that second hand furniture was from the 'IKEA of that day'.

Ad 2) There were no alternatives to local carpenters 100 years back. If you wanted a wardrobe, you would get one built for you. You can still do that today, and get a wardrobe for 8K, that lasts 40years. But now we do have "cheaper alternatives". His point exactly.

Not to distract from your overall point, but Sears was around 100 years ago. You could buy a kit house from their catalog in 1920.

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#58

Post by bojangleslover »

bserge wrote: post #11

Nobody cares anymore. People are working, resources are being extracted, created and traded, economies are rolling. Money is there to facilitate that, but on its own it's pretty much worthless. Just wish inequality wasn't so fucking huge.

Inequality is not necessarily a bad thing.

http://paulgraham.com/ineq.html

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#59

Post by [deleted] »

chucknthem wrote: post #41
throwdecro wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you imagine an piece of IKEA furniture being used daily and lasting for >40 years? Yeah. IKEA's not bad.

Some of the higher end IKEA stuff is not bad, I have a bed frame that's solid wood, looks great and I could easily keep it for decades. Most of the IKEA furniture I bought in my younger days is compressed cardboard and have been replaced because it was starting to fall apart after a few house moves and wear and tear.

[deleted]

Re: US Published National Debt: $28T. The Truth: $146T. Each Taxpayer's Share: $951k

#60

Post by mempko »

kingforaday wrote: post #40

If I were to accept the numbers as real and accurate. Am I correct to assume $951k over my "working" lifetime? Assuming if I start working at 18 and stop at 67, is that 951K "owed" over that time period? ~20K/yr in taxes owed to repay the debt. Is this correct thinking? Asking for a friend. :)

That's the amount that went into the private sector. It's literally how much money went into the private sector, every penny of it. To put it another way, if the government didn't spend, then the private sector would get less income. Or, every American would be fiscally poorer. One's spending is another person's income.
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