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Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#141

Post by joeberon »

shrimpx wrote: post #140
joeberon wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they are not enlightened in the sense meant in Buddhism, that is, they have not attained Arhatship nor become awakened Bodhisattvas nor Buddhas. They haven't extinguished the causes for rebirth, and are still bound to the samsaric cycle.

I don't buy that. For example Ramana Maharshi was awakened and he self-realized suddenly without following any path. There were awakened people before Buddha, and there are awakened people today without having followed any path. The idea that only Buddhism holds the keys to self-realization is dangerous, frankly. The Catholic Church want you to believe the same thing, that only the Papal hierarchy can direct you to G…

"self-realisation" has nothing to do with enlightenment in a Buddhist sense. I understand it is tempting to subsume all religious experiences into one super-experience, but they really are qualitatively different: in Buddhism it is about permanently ending suffering and the cycle of rebirth, in Advaita Vedanta (e.g. like Ramana Maharshi) it's about, as you say, self-realisation or perhaps "realising you are a part of God". What makes you so sure that these two things are necessarily related? I see this quite a lot, people want to think that Buddhist enlightenment is qualitatively the same thing as others, and that all the different spiritualities point to the same ultimate goal, which is some kind of spiritual union with God. Well that's _not_ the goal of Buddhism. Do you have any actual evidence to suggest it is?

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#142

Post by joeberon »

Aditya_Garg wrote: post #138
joeberon wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Mindfulness is "thinking when thinking, walking when walking, shitting when shitting".

No, mindfulness is more “watching while thinking, watching while walking, watching when shitting”

No, that is a popular misunderstanding of it. Watching is watching, watching while walking is not being mindful, you are being mindless if you are doing that, since you are removed from the situation. Mindfulness is simply knowing that you are doing without the need to watch or reflect on the fact that you are doing.

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#143

Post by andi999 »

forkLding wrote: post #120
andi999 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But. Under the hood is a centuries-old tradition of self-investigation and awareness. It's often laid at the door of Buddhism,". Could you be more precise? Which Buddhism? And which buddhist (meditation) practice? I am getting more and more the feeling that this is as true as 'ikigai' being something rooted in japanese culture (which it is not). People know little in depth about Japan, and/or Buddhism (but perceptio…

Probably Chan or Zen Buddhism, the word Chan 禅 means meditation. Zen is the Japanese pronunciation for Chan. Although they all belong to Mahayana Buddhism and Mahayana Buddhism has meditation practices, the more modern formats that the Western world has exposure from is likely Zen Buddhism.

I was thinking so (know too little about mindfulness). If you look at the state of Zen in Japan it is in a sharp decline and probably the vast majority does not practice meditation (couldn't find numbers though). While I sympathize with meditation it somehow has been taken over by modern life

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#144

Post by imjustforyou »

beckman466 wrote: post #85
whynaut wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is silly. I discovered mindfulness early in life and it definitely does help one contend with the (mental) pains of poverty. Please at least minimally research the topic before descending to call it “gaslighting hoo-ha”.

my problem is that we are living in one of the most globally unequal times [1]. i just don’t know how relevant a hijacked practice is that misrepresents it’s origins. the way ‘mindfulness research’ filters down today is a type of gaslighting. ‘McMindfulness’ (as Ron Purser calls it - he wrote a book with that same term) is often a vanity project by CEOs/executives/school boards in the west who have too much time on t…

Your qualms with meditation seem to be a reaction to the fact that within a capitalistic system, many things are coopted by capitalists because if they're compelling, they can compel people to pay money to be told about them. I'm not going to tell you you're wrong or really engage on that point but perhaps you'd appreciate listening to someone distinctly non-capitalist describing how meditation was an effective tool to understand the world around them, motivate their activism, and work towards a better world. Check out Michael Brooks on RevLeft [1]. Michael Brooks wrote a book on meditation and revolution that ties into some similar ideas, too.

[1]https://revolutionaryleftradio.libsyn.com/michael-brooks

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#145

Post by agumonkey »

locuscoeruleus wrote: post #137
agumonkey wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so it's similar to [programmer's] flow ?

I think a mindfulness teacher would describe what you refer to as flow as absorbed awareness. The alternative would be panoramic awareness, where you aren't just focused on one thing (the problem you're solving) but you are aware of everything that is going on in the moment.

oh yeah interesting

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#147

Post by beckman466 »

imjustforyou wrote: post #144
beckman466 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my problem is that we are living in one of the most globally unequal times [1]. i just don’t know how relevant a hijacked practice is that misrepresents it’s origins. the way ‘mindfulness research’ filters down today is a type of gaslighting. ‘McMindfulness’ (as Ron Purser calls it - he wrote a book with that same term) is often a vanity project by CEOs/executives/school boards in the west who have too much time on t…

Your qualms with meditation seem to be a reaction to the fact that within a capitalistic system, many things are coopted by capitalists because if they're compelling, they can compel people to pay money to be told about them. I'm not going to tell you you're wrong or really engage on that point but perhaps you'd appreciate listening to someone distinctly non-capitalist describing how meditation was an effective tool…

yes your analysis is spot on. i wrote clumsily above. i've been on a Vipassana retreat and had a beautiful experience and definitely benefited lots. thank you for your thoughtful comment and for the link to Brooks, i hadn't seen this

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#148

Post by shrimpx »

joeberon wrote: post #141
shrimpx wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy that. For example Ramana Maharshi was awakened and he self-realized suddenly without following any path. There were awakened people before Buddha, and there are awakened people today without having followed any path. The idea that only Buddhism holds the keys to self-realization is dangerous, frankly. The Catholic Church want you to believe the same thing, that only the Papal hierarchy can direct you to G…

"self-realisation" has nothing to do with enlightenment in a Buddhist sense. I understand it is tempting to subsume all religious experiences into one super-experience, but they really are qualitatively different: in Buddhism it is about permanently ending suffering and the cycle of rebirth, in Advaita Vedanta (e.g. like Ramana Maharshi) it's about, as you say, self-realisation or perhaps "realising you are a part of…

> What makes you so sure that these two things are necessarily related?

In short, I take these people's word for it because I see no reason to doubt it, just like any non-enlightened person takes the word of Buddha or Buddhist monks that they were/are enlightened. There are numerous instances of Hindus like Ramana and Nisargadatta claiming that their state of mind is identical to what Buddhists call Enlightenment.

If anything, it's Buddhism that has these crazy religious narratives about the cycle or rebirth and so on. Nisargadatta, for example, rejects all this stuff. God, reincarnation, is all conceptual fluff; ignorance. Because what is the "reincarnation" concept to the silent mind? It a disturbance.

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