Detroit in Ruins • Hacker News Board

Re: Detroit in Ruins

#91

Post by pyre » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 9:04 PM UTC

klous wrote: post #84

winestock wrote: post #31

My brothers run a property service company that maintains foreclosed homes in Detroit and parts northwest of it. When they need extra help, I ride along with them. Detroit and Pontiac are not the kinds of places that one would care to go by oneself, even for muscular young men. On more than one occasion, we would be approached by "youths" (one of them wasn't even that young) who were clearly drug dealers. One of my b…

I've lived in the Metro Detroit suburbs, and downtown Detroit is the spot right now. The ability to get whatever you need, yes even groceries, within walking distance is a reality. Walking to Tigers games, enjoying the nightlife, eating at amazing restaurants, and enjoying the city are a regular part of life. I live in downtown Detroit. I do not want to live in the suburbs.

It is still sort of surreal that right next to the Tiger's stadium there are a bunch of condos, but right next to the condos are a bunch of overgrown/condemned buildings. Also, I've been at the waterfront for the freedom fireworks (combined July 1 and July 4 fireworks display) on the Windsor side of the river and it was a pleasant experience. I'd never consider doing the same on the Detroit side of the river.

Though I should note that I haven't lived in the area since 2005, but most of my family still lives there.

Edit: Here's what I'm talking about. There are rows of condos right by the intersection of I-75 and Woodward Ave, but to the north there are some empty fields with abandoned houses. At one point those lots (which are now empty) were lined with houses.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&#38...

Re: Detroit in Ruins

#92

Post by pyre » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 9:05 PM UTC

jacksonpollack wrote: post #53

winestock wrote: post #31

My brothers run a property service company that maintains foreclosed homes in Detroit and parts northwest of it. When they need extra help, I ride along with them. Detroit and Pontiac are not the kinds of places that one would care to go by oneself, even for muscular young men. On more than one occasion, we would be approached by "youths" (one of them wasn't even that young) who were clearly drug dealers. One of my b…

Since you tend to go there only when dealing with foreclosed homes, perhaps you aren't seeing some of the nicer places? I have plenty of friends who live in Detroit and love it. I used to live there myself and loved it. Yes, there is ruin porn a-plenty, and many nasty areas. But there are also neighborhoods where you can live for really cheap and be part of a great, caring community. Of course, I'm sure my thoughts o…

As a counter point, I left Detroit in 2005 and I've lived in Toronto and Portland. Not a day goes by that I wish I were still living in Detroit or its suburbs.

Metro Detroit has a lack of good public transit. Everything is spread out, making biking annoying to impossible. I don't even think that the drivers would know what to do if they saw a bike on the road other than: 1) attempt to run down the rider or 2) swerve wildly into other lanes of traffic.

Re: Detroit in Ruins

#93

Post by bresh » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 9:10 PM UTC

kenjackson wrote: post #20

saturdaysaint wrote: post #6

This is unsympathetically referred to as "ruin porn" around Detroit. Yes, there are an exceptional amount of abandoned buildings (there are about 600,000 people in a city that could probably comfortably hold 3x that), but there are also world class universities, sports arenas, restaurants concert venues, houses and apartments, etc. http://www.viceland.com/int/v16n8/htdocs/something-something...

I assume when you mention world class universities you're referring to UM Ann Arbor -- maybe Kettering too. Is there a lot of cross fertilization between the city and the schools? Do a lot of UM students live or move to Detroit?

I think the reason a lot of grads from the state of MI don't live in Detroit is there is nothing attracting them to do so. When I graduated from MSU (2005) I knew more people from MSU and U of M moving to Chicago than Detroit to work. If Detroit were anything like Chicago or any other big city you would find a lot of U of M, MSU, CMU, WMU, OU, etc grads going to live and work in the city.

Re: Detroit in Ruins

#94

Post by tptacek » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 9:25 PM UTC

temphn wrote: post #88

winestock wrote: post #31

My brothers run a property service company that maintains foreclosed homes in Detroit and parts northwest of it. When they need extra help, I ride along with them. Detroit and Pontiac are not the kinds of places that one would care to go by oneself, even for muscular young men. On more than one occasion, we would be approached by "youths" (one of them wasn't even that young) who were clearly drug dealers. One of my b…

At the end of World War II, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuked. They were rebuilt into gleaming cities because they were inhabited by the Japanese. Today it's Detroit that looks like it was nuked. Except it was the inhabitants that nuked themselves, with quaint festivals like Devil's Night. No one has the courage to say what ruined Detroit, or Rhodesia, or South Africa. You have to pretend like it just happened. Peopl…

Were Rhodesia and South Africa ruined by a sudden and deliberate demographic shift that decimated the region's tax base and created dysfunction in the regions politics, followed by three decades of setbacks for core economic engine for the region mixed with offshoring?

Because I thought that's what did Detroit in. Not drug dealers. We have those in Chicago too, but also Boeing and stuff.

Re: Detroit in Ruins

#95

Post by rick888 » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 9:28 PM UTC

klous wrote: post #82

riceadam wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a UM student and I can't say there's much alumni activity in Detroit itself. Grads generally either work in Ann Arbor, Metro Detroit (Birmingham, Royal Oak, etc.) or leave the state entirely. This graphic from Forbes is pretty telling: http://goo.gl/4uBr

I'm a UM grad and I live in downtown Detroit. It's amazing: great culture, music, food, night-life, and I feel safe. I took our entire office to my place before a Tiger's game last week and now multiple people are looking into moving downtown and others are interested after that graduate.

Downtown might be okay. However, if you go outside just a little bit, you are in the danger zone. This isn't speculation.

Even 8 years go it was bad. I worked downtown and could regularly hear gunshots from my office during the day.

Re: Detroit in Ruins

#96

Post by tptacek » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 9:29 PM UTC

winestock wrote: post #60

jacksonpollack wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you tend to go there only when dealing with foreclosed homes, perhaps you aren't seeing some of the nicer places? I have plenty of friends who live in Detroit and love it. I used to live there myself and loved it. Yes, there is ruin porn a-plenty, and many nasty areas. But there are also neighborhoods where you can live for really cheap and be part of a great, caring community. Of course, I'm sure my thoughts o…

Dibble's First Law of Sociology: Some do; some don't. Accentuating the positive is cold comfort. Tenth-century Rome hosted the development of Gregorian chant and papal charters for the first universities. Focusing on those positive developments doesn't change the fact that Rome was a step or two above a cow town compared to contemporary Constantinople or, better yet, first-century Rome. Of course Detroit has nice pla…

Urban renewal and racial integration are to blame, and not the destruction of the entire regional economy? Or, not to put to fine a point on it, did black people kill the auto industry too?

I grew up on the south side of Chicago, by the way, and I don't know what you're talking about, unless your suggestion is that any metropolis that has bad neighborhoods is evidence of the failure of racial integration.

Re: Detroit in Ruins

#97

Post by altcognito » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 9:30 PM UTC

lukejduncan wrote: post #61

_delirium wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a few abandoned buildings in Detroit that might count as having grandeur, like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Central_Station , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Army_of_the_Republic_Buil... . I agree that acres of rotting single-family homes isn't so impressive.

My real point is this: Detroiters are in denial. They all cry that the media and the world doesn't portray them properly while pretending that nothing is wrong with the city. Celebrate the beauty that exists (Michigan Central was actually what I was thinking of with the Rome comment) and take advantage of the rest. Do you know how cheap it is to live in the city? Yes: there are acres of abandoned rotting land, but wh…

Hah. Detroiters are in denial. Right. Detroit is in revival in the sense that there is a very small amount of investment occuring in a couple of small areas. Before this, there was NOTHING. They've gotten three or four major companies to move downtown, including the major league teams and it appears that cobo hall might even get some help from the suburbs. Seriously, prior to 2003 there was very little to talk about. It's been slow going, but I think the "revival" is real.

The thing that people miss when comparing Pittsburg and other cities to Detroit is that it is square MILES upon miles of complete ruin. The "ruins porn" is good for the city because it raises awareness of what destruction can take place when you remove the underlying economic structure from a community.

In terms of "startups", you are free to do -- there are city taxes, but it's probably doable in some areas, but keep in mind the lack of city services and that it is still a very, very dangerous city.

Re: Detroit in Ruins

#98

Post by winestock » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 9:30 PM UTC

klous wrote: post #84

winestock wrote: post #31

My brothers run a property service company that maintains foreclosed homes in Detroit and parts northwest of it. When they need extra help, I ride along with them. Detroit and Pontiac are not the kinds of places that one would care to go by oneself, even for muscular young men. On more than one occasion, we would be approached by "youths" (one of them wasn't even that young) who were clearly drug dealers. One of my b…

I've lived in the Metro Detroit suburbs, and downtown Detroit is the spot right now. The ability to get whatever you need, yes even groceries, within walking distance is a reality. Walking to Tigers games, enjoying the nightlife, eating at amazing restaurants, and enjoying the city are a regular part of life. I live in downtown Detroit. I do not want to live in the suburbs.

And if you stay in the Green Zone, then Baghdad isn't all that bad, either. If you stick to the embassies, Addis Ababa is actually rather safe. Stay away from the favelas and Rio de Janeiro is a lovely place.

Re: Detroit in Ruins

#99

Post by winestock » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 9:33 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #94

temphn wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of World War II, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuked. They were rebuilt into gleaming cities because they were inhabited by the Japanese. Today it's Detroit that looks like it was nuked. Except it was the inhabitants that nuked themselves, with quaint festivals like Devil's Night. No one has the courage to say what ruined Detroit, or Rhodesia, or South Africa. You have to pretend like it just happened. Peopl…

Were Rhodesia and South Africa ruined by a sudden and deliberate demographic shift that decimated the region's tax base and created dysfunction in the regions politics, followed by three decades of setbacks for core economic engine for the region mixed with offshoring? Because I thought that's what did Detroit in. Not drug dealers. We have those in Chicago too, but also Boeing and stuff.

That begs the question: What caused that sudden and deliberate demographic shift? What shifted in? What shifted out? Whatever caused millions of people to move out of their neighborhoods must have been intimidating.

Re: Detroit in Ruins

#100

Post by tptacek » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 9:33 PM UTC

winestock wrote: post #67

ikarous wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What makes this ruin porn all the more infuriating -- and disturbing -- is that it started when the cool people with the right ideas from the Ivy League schools stepped in." Post hoc, ergo proper hoc? I don't necessarily disagree with you, but don't you think that there might be more contributing factors? In particular, the decline of the American auto industry comes to mind in regards to Detroit.

The American automobile industry didn't really get hit by imports until the Oil Shocks of the 1970s. By then, the productive population of Detroit was already fleeing to the suburbs. Also, if the decline of the American automobile industry explains the decline of Detroit, then the suburbs of Detroit would have declined as well, instead of expanding. Furthermore, the decline of the American automobile industry does no…

The suburbs of Detroit are also in decline. For how many years now has Michigan been in the bottom quartile for unemployment?

The fact that Twelve Oaks Mall is nice and has an Apple Store doesn't mean that that the Detroit Suburbs are proof of a functioning greater Detroit metro economy.