It has always admitted it's unprofitable - they dropped their BS accounting metric trying to show that with some magic they were making a profit. To be honest their filing reeked so bad and them trying to slip in that crap and not account for marketing expenses - I wouldn't trust their executive team at all.
I'm left wondering why you can still find the word "ACSOI" in the document -- it's right there in the "We don't measure ourselves in conventional ways." section of the letter to investors. They do seem to have removed the metric from other places...but is it really that hard to do a search through the document before filing with the SEC? The mind boggles.
Groupon updates IPO filing, admits it's unprofitable
31–40 of 89 posts
Re: Groupon updates IPO filing, admits it's unprofitable
#32Groupon not selling to Google was the dumbest thing I've ever seen a company do. Ever.
So it could be a case of the powerful people not making enough with a Google exit than going public, even though Google + Groupon might have been a powerful and long-term more meaningful exit.
Re: Groupon updates IPO filing, admits it's unprofitable
#33If you are interested in Groupon's actual performance rather than a reporter's linkbait, see the filing. I find the table on page 57 rather informative about the current state of the business. http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1490281/00010474691100717...
Re: Groupon updates IPO filing, admits it's unprofitable
#34Groupon not selling to Google was the dumbest thing I've ever seen a company do. Ever.
Google's offer was $6B. The IPO is priced at $30B. I am scratching my head how that is the dumbest thing you have ever seen a company do. Ever. I can see the IPO valuation getting cut to a more reasonable $10B, but that is still more than the Google offer.
http://www.minyanville.com/businessmarkets/articles/web-ipos...
"Groupon is still effectively insolvent, and without capital infusions is unlikely to exist in 18 months."
In my opinion, valuing a company at $10B when they haven't ever shown a net profit is ludicrous.
Re: Groupon updates IPO filing, admits it's unprofitable
#35If you are interested in Groupon's actual performance rather than a reporter's linkbait, see the filing. I find the table on page 57 rather informative about the current state of the business. http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1490281/00010474691100717...
Revenue per subscriber has absolutely tanked. AKA - people become stale and aren't buying so those marketing costs they were trying to hide as one time subscriber costs are going to be around forever.
Re: Groupon updates IPO filing, admits it's unprofitable
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
Who's to say the IPO will be successful? The suits will have to keep their shares for a bit, plenty of time for the whole mess to unfold. Plus, Groupon raised a ton of VC ($950M) after turning down Google's offer. Factoring in dilution, it won't take a drastically bad IPO to make $6B in-hand look like a steal.
Hundreds of millions of dollars already went to the founders. The only risk is whether they'll be super rich or ultra super rich.
Re: Groupon updates IPO filing, admits it's unprofitable
#37Some say that we know they're not profitable but that's really not the point. By counting customer acquisition as an extraordinary expense they are implying that:
1. The value of that customer is AT LEAST as much the cost of acquisition; and
2. That cost also accounts for the natural loss of customers.
This is shady because (IMHO) daily deals customers have very little loyalty to the providers of those services, there is no natural barrier to prevent customers moving to LivingSocial or whomever and the high margin on deal split is transitory because increased competition will reduce what is really nothing more than the artificial scarcity introduced by Groupon's one deal a day (per market).
But none of that is why Groupon is a bad business (IMHO). Consider: Groupon offers a deal, people buy it and Groupon and the provider split those proceeds in some fashion. I believe--but don't know--that the provider has to wait for some large part of those proceeds too. Basically that delay is Groupon's cash flow.
So what's the best outcome for Groupon and the provider? One of two things:
1. The customer doesn't use that coupon. Groupon and the provider pocket the free money; or
2. The customer spends above the coupon or is a repeat customer such that the "marketing cost" (to the provider) of the Groupon offer is amortized over multiple visits and/or higher spend such that they make a profit.
In the case of (1), many providers really don't want customers to use coupons. There are plenty of anecdotes from people getting bad reactions when they tell a proprietor or a waiter or whatever that they're using a coupon, particularly in restaurants.
Worse, coupon users may be people who are prepared to pay full price anyway or the influx of coupon users may prevent full-paying customers from being able to use your service. The propaganda is that you can sell unused capacity. While true for some businesses I think you'll find that many people try to use Groupons in, say, restuarants at otherwise peak or busy times.
There are some success stories of (2) but plenty of failures too.
What isn't built into Groupon's financial statements is account risk. There is a strong argument that a failing business can make one last roll of the dice with a Groupon offer. If they fail, they were going under anyway.
I actually don't know if Google (disclaimer: I work for Google) tried to buy Groupon or not and if we did, at what price. The press reports Groupon turned down a $6 billion offer.
My personal opinion is that Google dodged a huge bullet if this is true.
Re: Groupon updates IPO filing, admits it's unprofitable
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
Revenue per subscriber has absolutely tanked. AKA - people become stale and aren't buying so those marketing costs they were trying to hide as one time subscriber costs are going to be around forever.
I think that would be revenue per customer, which has been pretty steady at around $40/customer/qtr, for the past year. The reason revenue per subscriber has dropped is because the ratio of subscribers to customers has fallen. That is a different problem that they are now signing up people who aren't really interested in buying a coupon.
Re: Groupon updates IPO filing, admits it's unprofitable
#39I mean today, the market tanked another 519 points. Everyone is busy taking their money out, not putting it in. And groupon doesn't exactly have the reputation as being a high quality IPO
Re: Groupon updates IPO filing, admits it's unprofitable
#40The juice that we're all looking for: > On that basis, Groupon incurred a $420 million operating loss for 2010 and a $117.1 million loss in the first quarter. So they had a slightly worse amortized 1st quarter this year than last.