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Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden

airforcemag.com

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Re: Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden

#181

Post by sudosysgen »

emaginniss wrote: post #23
justicezyx wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legally Taiwan and Mainland are in a civil war for the legitimate government of the one China. One China is the "policy" of US China and Taiwan. Of course, Taiwan want to get rid of that. China will risk a nuclear war to prevent that, and US is OK with either, preferably let China bleed the most with minimal cost. These are as obvious as the sun hanging over the sky. China had no ambition for territorial expansion ot…

Perhaps you haven't noticed that China has been building islands and claiming the sea around them. In fact, they claim the entire South China Sea as territorial waters. They routinely send their fishing fleets into the legitimate territorial waters of other nations. As they are starting to struggle again with the size of their population, expansion will seem like a natural solution.

The SCS is not claimed as territorial waters. In fact the claims are purposefully vague not just in content but also in scope in order to make it easy for China to negotiate them down in exchange for various concessions.

Re: Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden

#182

Post by sudosysgen »

rini17 wrote: post #159
dotancohen wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright then. With the authority vested in my by HN comment #28691569 (2021-09-29, rini17) I hereby declare all expansion ambitions of the United States of America on the North American continent after 1776 as territorial conquest. Furthermore, I declare all United Nations military presence on soil not under US control in 1776, especially soil not on the North American continent, to be territorial conquest.

Now notice how no one is going to "harmonize" you.

Not anymore that it is an unshakable fact and it doesn't matter what you think. Go back in 1790 or 1810 and see yourself jailed as a traitor.

Re: Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden

#183

Post by sudosysgen »

post_from_work wrote: post #119
justicezyx wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hypersonic missle won't carry nuclear war head. The impact is enough to render a CV lose combat capability. The modern weaponry are delicate machines. A 50s computer might withstand an earthquake. The modern one probably won't survive a drop less than 1 meter.

The US Navy does shock tests, where it detonates large explosives underwater close to its carriers, for exactly this reason. These ships are way more durable than you give them credit for. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/41181/shocking-images-...

Lol, no. The water stops explosions. A direct hit by a 10 ton mass going at Mach 7 will destroy any ship. the Navy won't make tests for that because it's a foregone conclusion.

Re: Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden

#184

Post by patagurbon »

foobarian wrote: post #88
rektide wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One key consideration that I only got recently is the difference between a cruise & ballistic missile. A ballistic missile launches at great velocity, then more or less falls at it's target (over an extended distance) using a ballistic trajectory. A cruise missile is under power for a large part of it's journey, typically flying much lower, & able to navigate/direct itself. A ballistic missile is often quite superson…

I was pretty surprised by how slow cruise missiles are when I read up on them recently - similar to big airliner speeds. I always had a mental image of missiles as these "fastest in the sky" things that you could only dodge but not outrun. It's possibly true for Sidewinders but even they top out around Mach 2.5, so the hypersonic developments are a huge step forward. Still kinda surprised there aren't fast missiles t…

The Standard-Missile family from the US can all go faster than Mach 2.5. But land attack missiles have never needed to be particularly fast until recently.

Re: Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden

#185

Post by AnimalMuppet »

dotancohen wrote: post #142
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hi, propagandist? Personal attacks are against site rules, and you've been here long enough that you should know that. > China had no ambition for territorial expansion other than defending herself. That's the pattern for 2 thousands years. China occupied Tibet. China invaded Vietnam twice. The first time, they stayed for a thousand years. "China has no ambition for territorial expansion" only if you accept China's…

> only if you accept China's definition of what is rightfully China. And under what pretense do you or your government have more authority to declare "what is rightfully China" than the Chinese?

What authority does China have to declare that Tibet is China? Taiwan? Everything inside the 9-Dashed-Line? What reason do we have to accept China's authority to declare that foreign territory is in fact part of China?

In the same way, when the bank robber says that he was just withdrawing his own money, we do not accept that the bank robber has authority to declare "what is rightfully his money".

Re: Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden

#186

Post by dirtyid »

varjag wrote: post #165
throwawaylinux wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not surprising, it just isn't exactly proportionate (well it is by one definition of the word I suppose). That strike would cause China to retaliate against the US homeland, wouldn't it? And the retaliation for that would aim to dismantle China's military and industrial base. If that's the case then I can't see how isolated tactical nukes against carriers makes sense for China. They might as well throw everythin…

I mean, sure: that's what my original point was, it's not just nuking the carrier group. China knows the dynamic, the likely escalation route from that and it knows at the end of it, it lays in radioactive ruin. Nuking is just not an option; even a conventional attack (with much less guarantee of success) is already a pathway to full scale war, just not immediately nuclear.

> not just nuking the carrier group

US/USSR were prepared for theatre level nuclear engagements, as long as not on USSR or US soil. I would not dismiss trading tactical nukes on third party soil if things get desperate. PRC SCS islands, US indo-pac bases, carrier groups are no brainers. Up to US bases in Japan and Australia. I think we dismiss low level nuke engagement at peril, any competent war planner will keep it in the repertoire.

Re: Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden

#187

Post by dirtyid »

nradov wrote: post #130
dirtyid wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Air Force has said it plans to pursue both the ARRW and the Hypersonic Attack Cruise Missile (HACM), as initial and future hypersonic attack capabilities, respectively. These are offensive standoff weapons launched from air designed to hit time sensitive targets. The question is really what targets, like I said, spending the money on 3000 JASSMs is already enough to sink every major PLAN combatants with room to…

It's for prompt global strike against high value, time-sensitive targets when there are no platforms capable of launching JASSMs (or similar weapons) within range.

Right, I'm just curious what targets fits such profile. Ostensibly US doesn't need this new capability unless there are new threats.

Re: Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden

#188

Post by dirtyid »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #185
dotancohen wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> only if you accept China's definition of what is rightfully China. And under what pretense do you or your government have more authority to declare "what is rightfully China" than the Chinese?

What authority does China have to declare that Tibet is China? Taiwan? Everything inside the 9-Dashed-Line? What reason do we have to accept China's authority to declare that foreign territory is in fact part of China? In the same way, when the bank robber says that he was just withdrawing his own money, we do not accept that the bank robber has authority to declare "what is rightfully his money".

China has dejure claims over Tibet and Taiwan. So it's more like a person who legitimate has access to their bank account wants to make withdraws after not touching the account for a while. But some nosy folks are butthurt because they falsely think it's black money or there's some mythical expiration date on legal ownership, tries to paint it as such, goes out of the way to prevent it, even though lawfully PRC is in the clear. SCS is an inheritance dispute, which other parties decided to involve arbituation that China didn't accede to.

But the practical answer is, under Westphalian order whose principles are enshrined in UN Charter (again the organizing order post war), PRC has authority to declare whatever she wants within her domestic jurisdiction, of which Tibet and Taiwan is formally recognized to be part of. UN has no position on legal/procedural merits PCA/UNCLOS ruling for SCS. That's a messy situation that gets resolved same way all territorial problems in Westphalian order gets resolved in lieu of treaty/accord that formally assigns ownership, territorial control with lots of force. So Chinese authority is derived from the same post war order as everyone else.

Re: Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden

#189

Post by nradov »

dirtyid wrote: post #187
nradov wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's for prompt global strike against high value, time-sensitive targets when there are no platforms capable of launching JASSMs (or similar weapons) within range.

Right, I'm just curious what targets fits such profile. Ostensibly US doesn't need this new capability unless there are new threats.

Likely targets would include high-level terrorists (think the next Osama bin Laden), adversary senior leadership, capital ships, and weapons of mass destruction.

Re: Hypersonic HAWC missile flies, but details are kept hidden

#190

Post by baybal2 »

sudosysgen wrote: post #173
baybal2 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May be, but I don't understand the obsession regarding hypersonic missiles. There are dozens of other surprise attack weapons to knockout a superpower level enemy to select from. Hypersonic weapons are just few of them. It's more of a psychological weapon as ICBMs are. As in most cases, a new wunderwaffe will lose out to oldschool war tricks.

Really not. Hypersonic missiles are a game changer because, without any risk of escalation, they are un-interceptable and can hit very important and high value assets very fast without requiring survivable targeting platforms.

If somebody takes out the GHQ of a superpower tomorrow with this, that is certainly "very escalateable," but unlike other options it still requires conventional follow up to deliver defeat, and keep the enemy occupied in immediate aftermath. And it surely lacks the intimidation factor of a massive nuclear ballistic missile attack.

No amount of surgical strikes will be enough to behead a well trained military of a superpower, unless somebody on the ground goes, and routes them after the initial strike, preventing the enemy chain of command from recovering.

Tanks, and troops on the ground will still be needed to capture enemy's capital, and surround, and immobilise major enemy concentrations.

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