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Tools to measure software energy consumption from your computer

luiscruz.github.io

61–70 of 72 posts

Re: Tools to measure software energy consumption from your computer

#61
post #41

Westerners really will do literally anything about climate change except reckon with their corporate overlords who by far are the biggest contributors to climate destruction. Get real, your app using 15% less power makes literally zero difference. If you want to make a real difference, nationalize and seize energy corporations and whip them into shape under planned economic management. Anything short of that and clim…

> Westerners really will do literally anything about climate change except reckon with their corporate overlords who by far are the biggest contributors to climate destruction. Disagree. Westerners will do literally anything except make any changes to their behavior. You even see it here whenever these threads come up - "why should I do anything while china is emitting X times more than the US". These companies don't…

Yes, many of us work at those companies. At my job we have what I would guess is a "medium" sized build-out in AWS. I asked our AWS support rep for tools to measure carbon impact -- ideally Cloudwatch metrics for type and amount of power consumed by an AWS resource. He said he'd pass it along (this was a couple years ago).

When we do clean house (e.g., destroying unneeded services/environments) it's largely based on reducing cost and complexity -- but cost is still a very poor proxy for low carbon.

I really like your "show me wind power to spare" API also.

Re: Tools to measure software energy consumption from your computer

#62

Westerners really will do literally anything about climate change except reckon with their corporate overlords who by far are the biggest contributors to climate destruction. Get real, your app using 15% less power makes literally zero difference. If you want to make a real difference, nationalize and seize energy corporations and whip them into shape under planned economic management. Anything short of that and clim…

Yes, its astounding how much energy is used by industry. I was involved in a sad industrial energy debacle, at a job long ago.

We were making electric arc furnace controllers. An electric arc furnace is commonly used to recycle metal. Think of large pencil leads (size of your thigh) stuck through an insulated lid over a large vat of old bicycles, water softeners, bedframes etc - recycled metal. By creating an arc between the three phases of the electrodes and the pile of metal and controlling the current and length of the arc, considerable energy can be transferred to the metal as heat. Pretty efficient.

Out beta test site complained that they'd be running a shift and notice the arc was misbehaving every morning - failing to moderate the arc length properly. Resulting in most of the energy going into the electrodes and eroding them away. What was going on?

By having an engineer sit there on an overnight shift, we discovered that the desktop computer running the algorithm was going into 'power save' mode, stopping the app from responding to inputs and leaving the furnace electrodes stalled.

We estimated that this 30MW furnace wasted as much energy over the week, as 'power save' mode on PCs saved in all of America for a year.

Think about it. It would have been better if Microsoft had never invented Power Save mode. More electricity would have been saved that year.

That's how much industrial power matters, and how little your app matters.

Re: Tools to measure software energy consumption from your computer

#63

Westerners really will do literally anything about climate change except reckon with their corporate overlords who by far are the biggest contributors to climate destruction. Get real, your app using 15% less power makes literally zero difference. If you want to make a real difference, nationalize and seize energy corporations and whip them into shape under planned economic management. Anything short of that and clim…

>> nationalize and seize energy corporations and whip them into shape under planned economic management. Can you imagine not being able to heat your apartment/home, or your stores being empty because there's no fuel for trucks? Unless you can really picture that and still tell yourself "yup, I really do want that," you shouldn't be excited/confident about what you're proposing. I suspect you can't really imagine what…

You're doing the equivalent of pointing to Liberia as an example of why privatization is bad. Nationalization has been working out pretty well for China and if we really want to tackle climate change we need collective action. It's the only way

Re: Tools to measure software energy consumption from your computer

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> nationalize and seize energy corporations and whip them into shape under planned economic management. Can you imagine not being able to heat your apartment/home, or your stores being empty because there's no fuel for trucks? Unless you can really picture that and still tell yourself "yup, I really do want that," you shouldn't be excited/confident about what you're proposing. I suspect you can't really imagine what…

> Can you imagine not being able to heat your apartment/home, or your stores being empty because there's no fuel for trucks? Unless you can really picture that and still tell yourself "yup, I really do want that," you shouldn't be excited/confident about what you're proposing. This seems like an exaggeration. If anything, compare the current CO2 emissions per capita by country to get a better picture of how things wo…

> you'd stop having so many kids and would lower your population density, on the path to which most European countries are already on

You make it sound like you believe this is a good thing while people who are actually experiencing population decline are not having a good time.

Whether it's countries like Japan and Russia desperately trying to encourage births, China lifting its one-child policy, villages in Italy paying people to move there, desolate post-industrial towns in the US rotting, etc - everything points to population decline as a strictly terrible thing.

Like you, I was also born in Latvia. In 1980s, the country had 2.6 million people. Today, something like 1.9 million - 27% decline in 40 years. You may celebrate this from the CO2 point of view but I think the more obvious interpretation of these numbers is "Latvia is dying." It saddens me to see this. I am not sure whether the land will just be empty or it will be populated by people from cultures who have not reduced their children (history suggests the latter) but - are you sure this is what you want?

Also, taken to the extreme, your logic suggests not just reducing kids, but mass suicide/homicide. After all, if we care about CO2 above all else, why wait a generation for the number of "emitters" to decline, when we can just solve the problem today?

None of this is to say that reducing emissions isn't important and there are a ton of great ways to do that (new energy sources, reduced commuting through better and better communication tools) coming on-line that I am really excited about. But destroying future generations to move this metric doesn't seem right to me.

Re: Tools to measure software energy consumption from your computer

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you imagine not being able to heat your apartment/home, or your stores being empty because there's no fuel for trucks? Unless you can really picture that and still tell yourself "yup, I really do want that," you shouldn't be excited/confident about what you're proposing. This seems like an exaggeration. If anything, compare the current CO2 emissions per capita by country to get a better picture of how things wo…

> you'd stop having so many kids and would lower your population density, on the path to which most European countries are already on You make it sound like you believe this is a good thing while people who are actually experiencing population decline are not having a good time. Whether it's countries like Japan and Russia desperately trying to encourage births, China lifting its one-child policy, villages in Italy p…

> You make it sound like you believe this is a good thing while people who are actually experiencing population decline are not having a good time.

It can be a good thing for managing emissions and the entire planet not becoming inhospitable, while at the same time being a bad thing for people in these societies in the short term.

Demographic transition phases (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition) are inevitable - growth cannot continue forever with limited resources and it therefore makes sense to put social mechanisms in place to cope with a significant part of the population aging at any given time.

The fact that this is not the case is simply a failure in choosing the right priorities as a society, not some absolute truth. If anything, you should be asking where your tax money goes and whether there's enough to take care of the elderly that have worked their entire lives in the service of the country, instead of that responsibility being passed down to their kids.

> You may celebrate this from the CO2 point of view but I think the more obvious interpretation of these numbers is "Latvia is dying." It saddens me to see this.

While i share this emotion, there are cities out there that have larger populations than this entire country. I agree that the history of cultures should be preserved, but certain osmosis and naturalization of other cultural elements is inevitable in all but the most xenophobic and isolationist societies. That's not a bad thing.

Countries and cultures dying out, or becoming a part of something larger (e.g. a mix of the Baltic cultures, for example) is completely natural, regardless of how any single person might feel about it - though it also takes place over hundreds or even thousands of years, so there's no need to worry about what will happen in your lifetime in that regard. What do countries even matter, if we're all stuck on this rock together?

> Also, taken to the extreme, your logic suggests not just reducing kids, but mass suicide/homicide.

This is a strawman that feels dishonest and that i will not engage. While the argument is "technically true", it's also one of those that are insane enough not to warrant further consideration.

Rather than nitpicking, it instead makes way more sense to simply live a responsible life yourself, because you didn't choose to be brought into this world, and to consider when and whether you can afford the large amount of resources that are necessary to have a child or even many. You don't need to be a nihilist to be responsible.

Then again, i do believe that many of the people who should give this a thought don't and therefore have to support the large families of their own making, that they oftentimes cannot, all at the expense of not only society, but also the quality of life that their kids have.

Thus, moderation is probably for the better in life in most cases, as is introspection. Don't bring too many kids into this world if you cannot take good care of them. Don't bring too many kids into this world if the fact of them existing is likely to make things worse environmentally/otherwise. If you do bring kids into this world, be the best parent that you can be and teach them all that you can. Never make babies just because that's what your biology tells you to do, or what society expects you to do.

It's not like you can't be a parent at all, though. And that's hardly destroying the future generations.

You can't assume the amount of people on the planet as some sort of a proxy for well being, by that logic life was 2x worse in the 1960s: https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/world-populat...

The economic drives for persistent growth are of our own making, nothing more.

Re: Tools to measure software energy consumption from your computer

#66
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I briefly alluded to, the liberal democratic capitalist economic and political organization of western society, along with Anglo cultural notions of individualism in general, are entirely antithetical to addressing climate crisis, which requires long term coordination and economic planning, not the profit driven hawkery of the "free" market. And extreme individualism feeds into making this level of coordination co…

I suggest you to read up on how the alternatives to free-market capitalism have performed in environmental protection before pinning your hopes on them. I was born and lived in the USSR. Since everything was state-owned and natural resources were allocated, not bought and sold and taxed, there was no incentive to use them efficiently. The result was horrible pollution everywhere, the like we see in modern-day China.…

There were other USSR environmental disasters too like the Aral Sea. Clearly neither unrestrained capitalism or total public ownership of the environment are viable.

Thankfully we have a third way, mixed economies that internalize externalities so that people and firms are incentivized to make correct environmental decisions. There’s a reason nearly every economist favors Pigovian solutions like carbon taxes for the environment. Governments can apply the same rules to themselves.

Companies are just centrally planned governments that haven’t reached scale yet. We heap scorn on Five Year Plans when governments do them, but firms (especially in limited competition) create five year plans all the time, sometimes with just as disastrous results as Mao.

Re: Tools to measure software energy consumption from your computer

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you'd stop having so many kids and would lower your population density, on the path to which most European countries are already on You make it sound like you believe this is a good thing while people who are actually experiencing population decline are not having a good time. Whether it's countries like Japan and Russia desperately trying to encourage births, China lifting its one-child policy, villages in Italy p…

> You make it sound like you believe this is a good thing while people who are actually experiencing population decline are not having a good time. It can be a good thing for managing emissions and the entire planet not becoming inhospitable, while at the same time being a bad thing for people in these societies in the short term. Demographic transition phases ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition )…

> You can't assume the amount of people on the planet as some sort of a proxy for well being, by that logic life was 2x worse in the 1960s

I know this isn't quite what you were getting at, but child mortality rate is commonly a proxy for well being, is a major factor in the global population increase, and was >4.5x higher in 1960: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/global-child-mortality-ti...

So, in some sense of it, population size is a proxy for well being (at least for now).

Re: Tools to measure software energy consumption from your computer

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You make it sound like you believe this is a good thing while people who are actually experiencing population decline are not having a good time. It can be a good thing for managing emissions and the entire planet not becoming inhospitable, while at the same time being a bad thing for people in these societies in the short term. Demographic transition phases ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition )…

> You can't assume the amount of people on the planet as some sort of a proxy for well being, by that logic life was 2x worse in the 1960s I know this isn't quite what you were getting at, but child mortality rate is commonly a proxy for well being, is a major factor in the global population increase, and was >4.5x higher in 1960: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/global-child-mortality-ti... So, in some sense of it…

> So, in some sense of it, population size is a proxy for well being (at least for now).

It is only a proxy for as long as you ignore the last stages of demographic transition or haven't reached them - because in most countries with good health care and safe living conditions, the populations eventually stall or even decline, even though the quality of life doesn't necessarily have to (in lieu of bad political decisions being made).

That said, i do believe that child mortality is probably a more accurate indicator in that regard, since that would be directly correlated to how good the healthcare is and would remain low in the later stages.

Re: Tools to measure software energy consumption from your computer

#70

Westerners really will do literally anything about climate change except reckon with their corporate overlords who by far are the biggest contributors to climate destruction. Get real, your app using 15% less power makes literally zero difference. If you want to make a real difference, nationalize and seize energy corporations and whip them into shape under planned economic management. Anything short of that and clim…

Yes, its astounding how much energy is used by industry. I was involved in a sad industrial energy debacle, at a job long ago. We were making electric arc furnace controllers. An electric arc furnace is commonly used to recycle metal. Think of large pencil leads (size of your thigh) stuck through an insulated lid over a large vat of old bicycles, water softeners, bedframes etc - recycled metal. By creating an arc bet…

This incident is an interesting example of the general under-appreciation of systems thinking and the impact of tail events. Amazing/crazy!
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