YouTube is banning anti-vaccine activists and blocking all anti-vaccine content • Hacker News Board

Re: YouTube is banning anti-vaccine activists and blocking all anti-vaccine content

#261

Post by nradov » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 3:02 PM UTC

aioprisan wrote: post #227

mariodiana wrote: post #65

I think we have to ask if this won't have a chilling effect on open discussion by moderate voices. I'm subscribed to the channel of an M.D. on YouTube who discusses COVID-19, vaccines, etc. He is very careful to (repeatedly) point out that he is vaccinated, he has personally vaccinated hundreds of patients, he encourages everyone to speak to their doctor and follow their recommendations, believing that the vaccine is…

> Months ago he was insisting that the people who had contracted COVID-19 and who had antibodies in their system may not need the vaccine. Now, we have a number of studies coming out to support that. No such study exists, please link to the primary research. Vaccination always offers stronger protection than getting the virus [1], and more importantly, even if they offered equivalent protection for 99% of people, the…

There is conflicting research in this area. It's too early to declare any definitive conclusions yet.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...

Re: YouTube is banning anti-vaccine activists and blocking all anti-vaccine content

#262

Post by silent_cal » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 3:02 PM UTC

Big Pharma worshipping elitist shills see that they're losing the argument, so instead of thinking harder or changing their minds, they ban their opponents. These people are the worst.

Re: YouTube is banning anti-vaccine activists and blocking all anti-vaccine content

#263

Post by syshum » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 3:03 PM UTC

nimbius wrote: post #189

mariodiana wrote: post #65

I think we have to ask if this won't have a chilling effect on open discussion by moderate voices. I'm subscribed to the channel of an M.D. on YouTube who discusses COVID-19, vaccines, etc. He is very careful to (repeatedly) point out that he is vaccinated, he has personally vaccinated hundreds of patients, he encourages everyone to speak to their doctor and follow their recommendations, believing that the vaccine is…

>I think we have to ask if this won't have a chilling effect on open discussion by moderate voices first, youtube isnt where open discussion by moderate voices happens. Its a cavalcade of endlessly random videos promoting everything from free energy to colloidal silver cures and get rich quick schemes. Second, the topic of conversation is vaccination methodology during an ongoing pandemic in which a sizeable quantity…

>>as an aside, the concept of an "anti-vaccine activist"

Well they change what "anti-vaccine" means [1], so now I am classified as a "person who has been vaccinated but is Anti-vaccine" because I oppose any and all governments mandates that would force a person to be vaccinated, or would impose conditions on them by government to participate in society.

private companies can impose them but government should not, not if we want to claim to be a free society.

Due to my position against authoritarian policies I am officially a "Vaccinated Anti-vaxxer" a oxymoronic label only government could come up with.

[1]https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-vaxxer

Re: YouTube is banning anti-vaccine activists and blocking all anti-vaccine content

#264

Post by coldpie » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 3:03 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #182

listless wrote: post #174

My wife is very vaccine hesitant, and every time they make a move like this to block content or take it down, it only strengthens her position. She thinks they’re taking it down because they don’t want people to know the truth. The only thing worse than bad ideas is the suppression of bad ideas. It’s tragic that we knew this at some point, but are going to have to figure it all back out again the hard way.

> She thinks they’re taking it down because they don’t want people to know the truth. Hell, I always thought anti-vaxxers were looneys and was first in line for the COVID shot when it was available in March... but even I'm starting to be convinced that the anti-vaxxers might have a point because of all this effort to silence them. I'm becoming vaccine... remorseful?

Please don't make medical decisions based on crap you read on the Internet, and especially not based on articles about crap other people are reading on the Internet. Talk to a doctor. That's what they're there for.

Re: YouTube is banning anti-vaccine activists and blocking all anti-vaccine content

#265

Post by idiotsecant » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 3:04 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #182

listless wrote: post #174

My wife is very vaccine hesitant, and every time they make a move like this to block content or take it down, it only strengthens her position. She thinks they’re taking it down because they don’t want people to know the truth. The only thing worse than bad ideas is the suppression of bad ideas. It’s tragic that we knew this at some point, but are going to have to figure it all back out again the hard way.

> She thinks they’re taking it down because they don’t want people to know the truth. Hell, I always thought anti-vaxxers were looneys and was first in line for the COVID shot when it was available in March... but even I'm starting to be convinced that the anti-vaxxers might have a point because of all this effort to silence them. I'm becoming vaccine... remorseful?

Yes anti-vaxxers are looneys.

No they shouldn't be removed from the modern public forum because of that.

Don't let the two get confused. Just because someone is silencing people with stupid opinions doesn't somehow make those opinions less stupid.

Re: YouTube is banning anti-vaccine activists and blocking all anti-vaccine content

#266

Post by goldenbikeshed » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 3:04 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #193

ookblah wrote: post #50

Someone want to throw out there a better way to combat disinformation than just armchair criticizing their decision? I almost feel like people are siding with the anti-vaxxers out of "principle". Just a no win situation. It's too easy for bad characters to screw up an entire system with little effort (look at trolls, spammers, etc). Either you moderate everyone and slippery slope down into censorship where the tools…

> I almost feel like people are siding with the anti-vaxxers out of "principle". I can confirm your suspicions in my case. I'm vaccinated (against COVID, the flu, and tetanus, and all the other things you can get vaccinated against), but I think YouTube is wrong here.

I think the problem is less what YouTube is doing here and more that YouTube has this kind of power. If every country had 10 video Websites like Youtube that each had a 10th of the users from that country, and maybe some international users, then one portal taking a total ban-all hard-ass stance on misinformation wouldn't be a big deal.

tldr: Monopolies bad, YouTube bad, facebook bad.

Re: YouTube is banning anti-vaccine activists and blocking all anti-vaccine content

#267

Post by greyhair » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 3:04 PM UTC

The problem is all down to the cost of moderation, nothing else. Maintaining YouTube profitability.

Troll farms are spamming all of social media with misinformation, and that makes it hard to filter out the actual rational voices in the discussion.

I don't know the solution, I really don't. Without some form of 'trust' label that gets vetted to drown out mere 'views' and 'likes'.

Just read an article that in 2019, 19 of the top 20 Christian sites on Facebook were generated by Troll farms in Eastern Europe.

It is all messed up (disclosure, I don't have a Facebook account) and I don't know how it gets fixed.

I am all for factual vaccine information, pro and con, but I am opposed to people learning any topic from trolls with an adversary agenda.

The anti-vax crowd has been very effective in killing off Trump supporters for the last two months, for example.

Re: YouTube is banning anti-vaccine activists and blocking all anti-vaccine content

#268

Post by ncallaway » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 3:04 PM UTC

nanis wrote: post #141

wepple wrote: post #64

Can anyone recommend a good book on the balance between free speech versus disallowing harmful ideas to propagate? Or even one book from each side of the argument? I don’t think I’ve even begun to comprehend a robust position on what might make sense, or the arguments involved.

> balance between free speech versus disallowing harmful ideas to propagate? There is no balance. The very fantasy of such a balance relies upon the presumption that 1) there are harmful _ideas_; and 2) that there is an authority that can certify some ideas as _safe_ vs _harmful_. The discussion here gets overwhelmed by several generations of people who never actually understood what people had to give up for the rig…

> 1) there are harmful _ideas_

There are, though. There are ideas that are harmful.

The idea that the Jewish population was responsible for the harms and ills of pre-WWII Germany was a devastatingly harmful idea.

> 2) that there is an authority that can certify some ideas as _safe_ vs _harmful_.

It's obvious to me that there cannot be a singular authority that makes such determinations.

But it does seem totally plausible to have a distributed network of actors, each making their own determinations, and each influencing each other about which ideas are harmful, and which they will tolerate within their sphere. After all, that's the basic concept behind the "marketplace of ideas".

You can sell into the marketplace, but YouTube doesn't have to buy what everyone is selling.

I think it's just as totalitarian to tell a private entity that they must host content they disagree with, as it is to tell a private entity that they cannot speak about a specific topic to others. It's the antithesis of the marketplace of ideas.

I think the actual underlying issue is that YouTube, and a few other select entities, have an absolutely massive spheres of influence and feel like monopolies within. That's what kills the marketplace.

So, I do think private entities are completely within their rights to restrict their platforms however they see fit. I think doing so is even necessary for an effective marketplace of ideas that seeks truth. But I think we should also look at anti-trust laws that prevent individual private entities from having such a dominant position over an entire space.

Re: YouTube is banning anti-vaccine activists and blocking all anti-vaccine content

#269

Post by _bfhp » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 3:05 PM UTC

andreskytt wrote: post #239

Free speech used to mean the right to say anything without persecution. Does it now mean the right to have ones opinion be actively globally distributed by a third party? This is very much about fighting two viruses: one biological and the other one informational. We agree to limit contacts between people to stop the one but do not accept the same method to stop the other. Why? In both cases it is vital to ensure the…

People never say what they mean. Just say: I am comfortable with Big Tech having the right to pick and choose which opinions are valid and I don't think it will backfire in any way that upholds the exploitation of the oppressed.

Or one could say: Though I was alive through the War on Terror, I don't think giving exceptions to restrictions meant to protect individuals and peoples from extreme concentrations of global powers will tend to go wrong. Those in power will only use the new powers in the cases that I agree with, and not go further.

Re: YouTube is banning anti-vaccine activists and blocking all anti-vaccine content

#270

Post by scohesc » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 3:05 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #182

listless wrote: post #174

My wife is very vaccine hesitant, and every time they make a move like this to block content or take it down, it only strengthens her position. She thinks they’re taking it down because they don’t want people to know the truth. The only thing worse than bad ideas is the suppression of bad ideas. It’s tragic that we knew this at some point, but are going to have to figure it all back out again the hard way.

> She thinks they’re taking it down because they don’t want people to know the truth. Hell, I always thought anti-vaxxers were looneys and was first in line for the COVID shot when it was available in March... but even I'm starting to be convinced that the anti-vaxxers might have a point because of all this effort to silence them. I'm becoming vaccine... remorseful?

Welcome to the club!

Almost two years of "two more weeks and we'll be out of this! just do your duty and we'll be free of this pandemic!"

I was very vaccine hesitant and would say I was coerced by government, private businesses (and the governments mandates handed to them), and by my peers. I ended up getting the vaccine recently but I am very scared of the potential consequences.

We need the world to rip off the bandaid and open up instead of our leaders prolonging this pandemic to gain more and more power.