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Noam Chomsky on the cruelty of American imperialism

economist.com

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Re: Noam Chomsky on the cruelty of American imperialism

#101

Post by browningstreet »

readonthegoapp wrote: post #46
tapgnid wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you familiar with Rutger Bregman and his book Humankind? That gives a fresh perspective into humanity. One that I believe to be true. We're just too deep into the illusion of evilness, that's mandatory for status quo.

i think some very small contingent of often-extraordinarily rich and powerful -- and, therefore, comparatively-loud -- people either believe or claim to believe that humans are selfish/evil. the fact that someone would have to write a book to countervail that claim shows the incredible power of those few people. then again, we have folks like Steven Pinker, who - i don't know what his actual views on human nature are…

Honest question: did you read Pinker’s book?

Re: Noam Chomsky on the cruelty of American imperialism

#102

Post by tapgnid »

readonthegoapp wrote: post #46
tapgnid wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you familiar with Rutger Bregman and his book Humankind? That gives a fresh perspective into humanity. One that I believe to be true. We're just too deep into the illusion of evilness, that's mandatory for status quo.

i think some very small contingent of often-extraordinarily rich and powerful -- and, therefore, comparatively-loud -- people either believe or claim to believe that humans are selfish/evil. the fact that someone would have to write a book to countervail that claim shows the incredible power of those few people. then again, we have folks like Steven Pinker, who - i don't know what his actual views on human nature are…

Thanks for Pinker, I'll add it to my list. Would the primary book be: The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined?

Re: Noam Chomsky on the cruelty of American imperialism

#103

Post by readonthegoapp »

tapgnid wrote: post #102
readonthegoapp wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think some very small contingent of often-extraordinarily rich and powerful -- and, therefore, comparatively-loud -- people either believe or claim to believe that humans are selfish/evil. the fact that someone would have to write a book to countervail that claim shows the incredible power of those few people. then again, we have folks like Steven Pinker, who - i don't know what his actual views on human nature are…

Thanks for Pinker, I'll add it to my list. Would the primary book be: The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined?

i actually don't know his primary book - but that one sounds reasonable enough - that was definitely one of his reasons why he said the world was getting better.

Re: Noam Chomsky on the cruelty of American imperialism

#104

Post by readonthegoapp »

browningstreet wrote: post #101
readonthegoapp wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think some very small contingent of often-extraordinarily rich and powerful -- and, therefore, comparatively-loud -- people either believe or claim to believe that humans are selfish/evil. the fact that someone would have to write a book to countervail that claim shows the incredible power of those few people. then again, we have folks like Steven Pinker, who - i don't know what his actual views on human nature are…

Honest question: did you read Pinker’s book?

no.

Re: Noam Chomsky on the cruelty of American imperialism

#105

Post by qPM9l3XJrF »

ArchD wrote: post #11

I wonder how much of the authoritarian tendencies of the government of certain countries (e.g. Russia, China, Iran) is driven by a desire to maintain the stability and control presumably needed to resist hostile actions by the US empire that ironically professes freedom and democracy.

That makes sense to me, and it's also the impression I got from watching this interview with Vladimir Putin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6pJd6O_NT0

I don't think Putin is fully honest, but ignoring what he says doesn't seem like a good idea either, and I found the interview fairly enlightening.

I think an important clue here is that all the authoritarian regimes (Russia, Belarus, China, Iran, North Korea, etc.) seem much more likely to form alliances with one another even in the absence of an obvious shared national interest.

An interesting case study may be the recent secular coup attempt in Turkey. Secular values are closer to western values, and according to this editorial in Turkish state news, when given the chance to come out in favor of democracy and political stability (by opposing the coup) or western values (by not opposing it), Europe chose the latter

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/analysis/opinion-the-july-15-coup-h...

Basically I see the modern geopolitical divide as being countries focused on human rights and secular western values on the one hand (US and its allies) and countries focused on stability on the other hand (Russia/China and friends). Both positions have some merit in my view. For example, I think Putin makes a good point that the US screwed up in Libya--we were aiming to achieve human rights but we ended up just destabilizing the region. IMO there has to be a balance between both human rights and stability considerations.

Chomsky is fighting the last war when he talks about US actions in past decades in South America. Back then the global divide was capitalism vs communism. Now it's about human rights vs stability IMO.

Re: Noam Chomsky on the cruelty of American imperialism

#106

Post by qPM9l3XJrF »

dsq wrote: post #98

"Geopolitics, like nature, abhors a vacuum" - George Attali. American world involvement does have some aspects of imperialism. But are we to be so naive as to assume that America's withdrawal from control of resources wouldn't be quickly followed by their takeover by other, even less enlightened players?

Agreed. This book argues that periods of world history with an uncontested superpower (e.g. Britain or the US) are significantly more peaceful than those without:

https://www.amazon.com/War-What-Good-Conflict-Civilization/d...

The post-WWII era, which coincides with the era of American dominance, has been a fairly peaceful period by historical standards. It's hard to argue with results.

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