Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up • Hacker News Board

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#301

Post by j_walter » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 4:49 AM UTC

irjustin wrote: post #286

j_walter wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Fabs need a lot of water, like a swimming pool. Once you fill it up, then you need comparatively less to stay operational. This is just not true. The amount of cooling required for fabs is extremely significant and without major evaporative cooling you can't get it. With evaporative cooling comes water loss...and not a small amount of it, especially in the desert. You can do a lot to recycle water that is used in th…

Is it possible to do a closed cycle system? Or is that simply too expensive?

What exactly are you thinking? We have a closed loop system on our process cooling water but it is cooled via heat exchangers that use chilled water (in the 40-50 degree range). That water is chilled with extremely large chillers that use condenser water that is run through the cooling towers. It's as much of a closed system as you can get...eventually you need to remove heat and you can't just add energy to get it.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#302

Post by amluto » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 5:02 AM UTC

j_walter wrote: post #214

softfalcon wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right, fabs need more water than a swimming pool, maybe a big swimming pool. The fabs in Arizona are likely not going to be the main cause of water shortages there. How do I know this? Cause when Motorola had its massive (and inefficient) fabs running there in the 90’s-00’s and there were water shortages, they kept running just fine off their on premise reserves. Modern fabs are even more efficient with water…

The latest 300mm fabs use 10-50X the power of what the old 8" fabs used (I know this for a fact...). That power gets turned into heat and that heat has to be removed. I work at an "inefficient" 200mm factory that has pretty good internal recycling (~65%)...we still use 600K gallons per day. A single state of the art EUV tool uses ~2MW of power...<0.1% of that gets to the wafer. Most of the rest of that is lost to hea…

Assuming that those 600kgal start out ice cold and all end up evaporated at the boiling point, that’s 146MW of cooling. LCoE for plain solar power is about $31/MWh. Assuming you could discharge heat without evaporation at a COP of 4, that’s about $26k/day to buy power. Not at all cheap, but not insane. Interestingly, that is a lot more than the cost to buy that much water wholesale, even in Arizona, so I guess this is why people like cooling towers.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#303

Post by KirillPanov » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 5:26 AM UTC

UncleOxidant wrote: post #234

hosh wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Phoenix and have heard some of the local discourse about this. Fabs need a lot of water, like a swimming pool. Once you fill it up, then you need comparatively less to stay operational. Intel has invested in both recycling water as well as partnering with organizations on water conservation and ecology projects. Arizona does draw water from the Colorado River, but among the four states, Arizona is at the bo…

> Both TSMC and Intel are attracted to Arizona because it is seismically stable There are a lot of places in the US that are at least as seismically stable and also have more abundant water. I suspect the choice of Arizona has more to do with tax incentives and the fact that fabs already exist there (and thus there is an experienced workforce).

Not tax incentives. Predictable regulators.

Central Washington is ideal for chip fabs: tons of cheap electricity and excellent infrastructure, massive existing water supply, as/more geologically stable than Arizona, zero hurricanes/tornadoes. Three hours from Seattle is not commuting range, but it's close enough that the chip designers could easily do monthly fab visits. People underestimate how much idea exchange we've lost by separating design from fabrication.

Unfortunately Central Washington is part of a state that is known for erratic, wild, and unpredictable whims when it comes to any company whose name isn't "Boeing". It's not about taxes.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#304

Post by tcmart14 » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 6:27 AM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #224

TimTheTinker wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole point of governments is to pay for basic infrastructure like this. That's a pretty steep oversimplification there. Governments usually exist to promote justice and rule-of-law, keep people safe from internal and external threats to their physical safety, and to protect individual freedoms and liberty. Paying for infrastructure is only a small part of all of that.

Everything you cited is part of the common good. So is infrastructure. Governments exist to pay for this stuff, especially the unprofitable endeavors that benefit everyone. They essentially rob their population in order to do it. If a government isn't paying, it's corrupt.

I dont want to speak directly for the person you are replying to, but I think the point they are trying to make is this. Government exists for lots of reasons. If government has to spend more money to provide fresh water of the people (as it should if needed), it costs more. To cover the costs, there are two direct resources. Higher taxes or taking funds from elsewhere. Higher taxes would also mean less funds to draw from for other projects.

And I dont think it is to be taken in an anti-tax way, but a statement on resource allocation. If water becomes expensive for the people and government needs to subsidize or up subsidies, is there a risk that infrastructure for bridges get ignored to keep taxes low? Or to not tax people into poverty. Of course we can offset this with closing loop holes and upping taxes on the higher brackets.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#305

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 6:48 AM UTC

1234letshaveatw wrote: post #98

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel has built fabs in Arizona for a long time, this isn’t a new thing. They do this because of seismic stability and a lack of severe weather. Water isn’t a huge concern because they can internally recycle most of it.

vs. somewhere like Ohio? It is hard to believe moderate snowfall would override environmental externalities such as cooling costs and water use.

[deleted]

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#306

Post by _moof » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 6:52 AM UTC

1234letshaveatw wrote: post #98

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel has built fabs in Arizona for a long time, this isn’t a new thing. They do this because of seismic stability and a lack of severe weather. Water isn’t a huge concern because they can internally recycle most of it.

vs. somewhere like Ohio? It is hard to believe moderate snowfall would override environmental externalities such as cooling costs and water use.

Believe it or not, the Midwest is not seismically stable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone

Also, tornados.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#307

Post by irjustin » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 7:05 AM UTC

j_walter wrote: post #301

irjustin wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible to do a closed cycle system? Or is that simply too expensive?

What exactly are you thinking? We have a closed loop system on our process cooling water but it is cooled via heat exchangers that use chilled water (in the 40-50 degree range). That water is chilled with extremely large chillers that use condenser water that is run through the cooling towers. It's as much of a closed system as you can get...eventually you need to remove heat and you can't just add energy to get it.

Wondering if it's reasonably possible to remove that last water step that is relying on open air evaporative cooling. Air cooled through big ass fans == no more water losses == profit?

Sounds like it would be multiples more expensive to get that to work though.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#308

Post by stevenwoo » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 2:28 PM UTC

paulmd wrote: post #272

j_walter wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely it's a strange choice. From a power perspective it can make sense since solar works very well, but from a water perspective it's a very strange choice. Cheap land is also a very big factor. TSMC purchased over a thousand acres. Where else in the US can you find a thousand acres so near a populous area and so easily accessible off a major freeway like that? Tax promises and Trump trying to sway the state fo…

the west coast also has a pretty low incidence of natural disasters. The east coast regularly gets bad hurricanes, the northeast and midwest get really bad snowstorms, plains states regularly get tornadoes, etc, but on the west coast if you pick a region that's not geologically active then there aren't really a ton of huge natural disasters that occur regularly. of course I guess there's wildfires now too, but that's…

re: West coast - one of the big wild fires got within five miles of Cupertino two years ago, local friends got evacuation notices before the fire was stopped, and all homes and I imagine even manufacturing buildings have to be built to withstand an earthquake all along the coast.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#309

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

tw04 wrote: post #289

paulmd wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the west coast also has a pretty low incidence of natural disasters. The east coast regularly gets bad hurricanes, the northeast and midwest get really bad snowstorms, plains states regularly get tornadoes, etc, but on the west coast if you pick a region that's not geologically active then there aren't really a ton of huge natural disasters that occur regularly. of course I guess there's wildfires now too, but that's…

> the northeast and midwest get really bad snowstorms I’m curious what the supposed issues around snowstorms are. In the Midwest at least you typically lose a day of “work” (not going into the office) a couple times per winter and that’s only because of school closures. The roads are rarely an issue for more than a couple hours unless it’s REALLY bad storm. I don’t see why you couldn’t keep running the fabs through t…

[deleted]

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#310

Post by hosh » Wed, Sep 29, 2021, 3:25 PM UTC

irjustin wrote: post #307

j_walter wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly are you thinking? We have a closed loop system on our process cooling water but it is cooled via heat exchangers that use chilled water (in the 40-50 degree range). That water is chilled with extremely large chillers that use condenser water that is run through the cooling towers. It's as much of a closed system as you can get...eventually you need to remove heat and you can't just add energy to get it.

Wondering if it's reasonably possible to remove that last water step that is relying on open air evaporative cooling. Air cooled through big ass fans == no more water losses == profit? Sounds like it would be multiples more expensive to get that to work though.

I don’t know about a fab, but the design principle I have heard from people making better use of residential and agricultural water is not trying to get it to a complete 100% closed loop, but to get multiple uses (yields) out of it as it flows through the system.

In a residential setting, it is typically a single-use where water purified to drinking water standards are used to flush toilets and water the lawn.

The idea here is to make better use of inputs and outputs. The folks in the Earthship projects just outside of Taos, NM build residences that cycle water 3-4 times before it goes out through a septic field, which feeds vegetation.

In none of those cycles, are the water re-used for the same purpose. You don’t try to purify grey water from bathing to reuse for bathing or washing, and instead, it is treated onsite through plants to reuse for things like flushing toilets. Water transports things, so what you look at is what is the waste being carried and how can that “waste” be used as an input for something else.

In the case of the fab, it sounds as if the major waste being carried is heat, via evaporative cooling. As I have mentioned in a different comment, that likely changes the microclimate near the fabs. So one area to look at are what kind of yields we can get with that changed microclimate? It depends upon the design of the cooling towers, and weather the water carrying the waste heat was still liquid when it got to the tower. Maybe there is another use for heated water, not specifically in the fab process itself, but something that could benefit humans and the ecology in a different way. For example, diverting some of that water to areas where zone 10 (tropical) plants are put into cultivation.