Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 326 posts

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#261

Post by dv_dt »

josaka wrote: post #132
bloopernova wrote: post #2

Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't you want to build a semiconductor fabrication factory somewhere cold? Or is it because Arizona is dry? (honest questions, I don't know what impacts the location of a fab)

I think it's because it's dry. Facilities guy in the semi plant I used to work in told me that their highest energy usage was when it was humid, not when it's hot or cold. Said the energy cost to cool the humid air to pull out water and then heat it back up to the fab's target temp was pretty massive.

seems like you should be able to dump part of the waste heat back into the output air after the cooling stage.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#262

Post by j_walter »

tinco wrote: post #260
j_walter wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't just have AC when it comes to industrial cooling. You have to have chillers connected to cooling towers and those work on evaporative cooling. Feel free to debate all day on this though...I literally run the department in charge of it at a semiconductor manufacturing plant. Here is proof, it's just some of the cooling towers at Intel's current site in Chandler: https://www.google.com/maps/@33.2451403,-111.8…

So is the problem then that you can't push enough heat into the air, so you need to evaporate water? Sounds like a nice input to a desalination plant. Does this mean you agree that Arizona is a strange choice? If they need so much water, does that mean you agree that

Absolutely it's a strange choice. From a power perspective it can make sense since solar works very well, but from a water perspective it's a very strange choice. Cheap land is also a very big factor. TSMC purchased over a thousand acres. Where else in the US can you find a thousand acres so near a populous area and so easily accessible off a major freeway like that?

Tax promises and Trump trying to sway the state for the 2020 election had more to do with the choice than anything I think.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#263

Post by heavyset_go »

subsubzero wrote: post #184
kd913 wrote: post #5

Doesn't chip making a lot of water, most of it in Arizona is fed by Lake Mead? The same reservoir that is at 30% capacity, with acute water shortages and with 4 years of increased precipitation necessary for an adequate refill. We are adding a chip making facility which needs a lot of water here? This sounds like a recipe for disaster whenever there is a period of water stress which appears to be occurring in that re…

And yet you have the east coast(north east in my example) which is extremely lush and has 0 water issues and most companies are building these large sites in western water poor areas, intel - arizona phab, tesla - nevada gigafactory, facebook, datacenter southern new mexico.

The east coast gets hit by several hurricanes each year, some of which result in disasters and states of emergency being declared and cause billions of dollars worth of damage.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#264

Post by Izikiel43 »

cronix wrote: post #196
Nbox9 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AZ Natural Disasters AZ suffers from heat waves, which are steadily getting worse over time. Last year in a heat wave Phoenix saw several days above 115F. A 115F heatwave is a natural disaster mitigated by air conditioning. Hopefully a heat wave doesn’t coincide with a 2020 Texas sized electrical blackout. This isn’t a massive problem now, but imagine how bad AZ heat waves will be by the end of his factories life.

Where do you propose to build, then? Alaska? I live near the massive Intel campuses in Hillsboro, OR. We rarely get above 100F, but we experienced the same several days of 115F+ weather this last June just before summer officially hit. Almost 200 people died in Oregon/Washington directly from that heatwave and up to 500 in BC, Canada[1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/08/pacific-nort...

I think in the vancouver news and investigation afterwards, a bit over 1k people died.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#265

Post by dghlsakjg »

j_walter wrote: post #191
hosh wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Phoenix and have heard some of the local discourse about this. Fabs need a lot of water, like a swimming pool. Once you fill it up, then you need comparatively less to stay operational. Intel has invested in both recycling water as well as partnering with organizations on water conservation and ecology projects. Arizona does draw water from the Colorado River, but among the four states, Arizona is at the bo…

>Fabs need a lot of water, like a swimming pool. Once you fill it up, then you need comparatively less to stay operational. This is just not true. The amount of cooling required for fabs is extremely significant and without major evaporative cooling you can't get it. With evaporative cooling comes water loss...and not a small amount of it, especially in the desert. You can do a lot to recycle water that is used in th…

This is super interesting. Since you seem to have inside knowledge can you compare it to agriculture?

For example: the google machine tells me that cotton production in AZ uses somewhere in the neighborhood of 2.5-3.5 acre ft. water per acre. Would a large fab consume a comparable amount of water?

1 acre = 43.5k sq ft 1 acre foot = 325k gallons

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#266

Post by TimTheTinker »

brewdad wrote: post #207
TimTheTinker wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole point of governments is to pay for basic infrastructure like this. That's a pretty steep oversimplification there. Governments usually exist to promote justice and rule-of-law, keep people safe from internal and external threats to their physical safety, and to protect individual freedoms and liberty. Paying for infrastructure is only a small part of all of that.

Wouldn't ensuring a reliable supply of safe drinking water fall under keeping people safe from threats to their physical safety?

Technically, no. But safe drinking water does fall under other categories of "promoting the general welfare", so that's not to say it shouldn't be under government's purview.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#267

Post by j_walter »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #265
j_walter wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Fabs need a lot of water, like a swimming pool. Once you fill it up, then you need comparatively less to stay operational. This is just not true. The amount of cooling required for fabs is extremely significant and without major evaporative cooling you can't get it. With evaporative cooling comes water loss...and not a small amount of it, especially in the desert. You can do a lot to recycle water that is used in th…

This is super interesting. Since you seem to have inside knowledge can you compare it to agriculture? For example: the google machine tells me that cotton production in AZ uses somewhere in the neighborhood of 2.5-3.5 acre ft. water per acre. Would a large fab consume a comparable amount of water? 1 acre = 43.5k sq ft 1 acre foot = 325k gallons

In this case I can't compare it to agriculture. I don't think growing food in a desert is a good idea either.

The Intel site in Portland, OR uses ~2 Billion gallons of water per year. They claim they are bringing enough recycle capacity to save about half that.

https://www.oregonlive.com/silicon-forest/2017/08/intel_wate...

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#269

Post by willcipriano »

heavyset_go wrote: post #263
subsubzero wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet you have the east coast(north east in my example) which is extremely lush and has 0 water issues and most companies are building these large sites in western water poor areas, intel - arizona phab, tesla - nevada gigafactory, facebook, datacenter southern new mexico.

The east coast gets hit by several hurricanes each year, some of which result in disasters and states of emergency being declared and cause billions of dollars worth of damage.

North east isn't that bad, that's mostly the south east.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#270

Post by rayiner »

j_walter wrote: post #267
dghlsakjg wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is super interesting. Since you seem to have inside knowledge can you compare it to agriculture? For example: the google machine tells me that cotton production in AZ uses somewhere in the neighborhood of 2.5-3.5 acre ft. water per acre. Would a large fab consume a comparable amount of water? 1 acre = 43.5k sq ft 1 acre foot = 325k gallons

In this case I can't compare it to agriculture. I don't think growing food in a desert is a good idea either. The Intel site in Portland, OR uses ~2 Billion gallons of water per year. They claim they are bringing enough recycle capacity to save about half that. https://www.oregonlive.com/silicon-forest/2017/08/intel_wate...

That’s not much. The average family of 4 in Arizona uses about 325,000 gallons a year. So a billion gallons is equivalent to 3,000 families, or a very small town.
Post reply on HN