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Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

reuters.com

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Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#251

Post by softfalcon »

sbierwagen wrote: post #213
softfalcon wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arizona has a few major things going for it: - lack of seismic activity - very cheap, flat, easily excavated land - rich history of fab production (see: Motorola) which provides the necessary city infra, construction groups, supply distribution to build such fabs - consistently dry climate that despite being hot, is easily controlled for humidity - numerous tax and subsidy enticements to do business there

>rich history of fab production I would rank this way higher. Clustering fabs together makes it much easier to hire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabricat... Intel, Microchip, NXP, TSMC and Entrepix all have plants in Arizona. As an antiexample, the Bay Area has every negative attribute you could hope to think of for basing a software company there, and yet everyone does it anyway, just for hir…

Yeah, my points are in no particular order. Specifically avoided using numbered points for that reason. You’re right in that effective hiring is a major draw.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#252

Post by Dah00n »

kcb wrote: post #175
theandrewbailey wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power hungry is not a term I'd use to describe a Core 2 Duo. Or do CPUs need more power to run as they get older? That would be news to me.

It surely needs a lot more power to do the same work as a modern CPU. Like if you were encoding a video on it where against a modern CPU that may use the same power but finish many times sooner.

The new CPU has another carbon footprint added, plus the RAM and motherboard, etc. to overcome before it is comparable. I doubt a new CPU is effective enough to offset that anytime soon on an average use PC.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#253

Post by lazide »

minhazm wrote: post #155
zwirbl wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this leaves out the issues with the large amounts of water needed for semiconductor fabrication, although another commenter noted that Arizona has pretty good water management (I guess this includes recycling?)

> Globally, Intel is on track to achieve net positive water use by 2030. Today, in Arizona, we’re already at 95%. https://download.intel.com/newsroom/2021/manufacturing/Intel...

This is PR.

Water needs are local, except where it is explicitly part of the same watershed/supply system. 'Net positive' here means 'we help retain a bunch of water over there... , and use it over here ', and we're net positive!

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#254

Post by Dah00n »

Nbox9 wrote: post #109
wiz21c wrote: post #18

Next time the communication department says "less is more", I'll explode. Do we really need to produce more IC's ? Can't we just limit the demand a bit ? Can't we make washing machines, cars, bikes, fridges, dish washers, coffee machines,... without IC's ? My Core2 Duo is 12 years old and I still use it 8 hours a day, do I really need a new generation CPU ? I understand that global economy (and thus employment and ot…

How is raising the information processing capabilities of humanity anything but a net good thing?

If it is to scan milk inside a refrigerator? Most can do without "smart" functionality.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#255

Post by sitkack »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #243
sitkack wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not challenging you, but I'd love to see some hard numbers on this. Like what is the total volume of water, recycle rate and. discharge rate and intake rate over a year. Is it low enough to truck the water in?

Here is what I can find off hand: https://www.theverge.com/22628925/water-semiconductor-shorta... > Last year, the company pledged that by 2030 it will restore and return more freshwater than it uses. It’s nearing that benchmark in Arizona, where Intel says it cleaned up and returned 95 percent of the freshwater it used in 2020. It has its own water treatment plant at its Ocotillo campus in Chandler that’s similar to…

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#256

Post by Dah00n »

dsq wrote: post #215
CivBase wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As romantic as the US gallantly defending Taiwan from the Chinese invaders sounds, let's be honest. The US could do little more than buy the Taiwanese some time to escape. If the CCP ever decides it's time to take control of Taiwan by force, they could. It's the economic backlash from the rest of the world they are currently worried about, not military resistance. Although I'm not sure just how much they even have to…

Crossing a wide span of water (wider than the English Channel) against a determined defender is really hard. Taiwan is bristling with anti ship missiles and are very much against being taken over by the PRC.

That doesn't change that fact that Taiwan doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell. At most it adds a few days from start to end. It is extremely unrealistic to have Taiwan not become part of PRC if war breaks out. The US only have one way to win and that's all-out invasion after nuking mainland China - but then no-one wins.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#257

Post by Dah00n »

josephcsible wrote: post #180
beebeepka wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how I know you imagine yourself to be on the winning side of this world war. Good luck with that. Not really, though

I do think we would win in the end, but even if we didn't, I'd rather go down fighting than graciously accept our new CCP overlords.

The US is looking more and more like ancient Rome. In 10-15 years it likely neither can win a war against China but it will also likely not have many allies on its side if it tries.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#258

Post by j_walter »

spaztastical wrote: post #246
j_walter wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Fabs need a lot of water, like a swimming pool. Once you fill it up, then you need comparatively less to stay operational. This is just not true. The amount of cooling required for fabs is extremely significant and without major evaporative cooling you can't get it. With evaporative cooling comes water loss...and not a small amount of it, especially in the desert. You can do a lot to recycle water that is used in th…

That is not how that works. Las vegas is full of pools and fountains... INDOORS. they retain the moisture in their enclosed ecosystems. We have ACs that pull water out of the air, and we also know how to make buildings.

You can't just have AC when it comes to industrial cooling. You have to have chillers connected to cooling towers and those work on evaporative cooling. Feel free to debate all day on this though...I literally run the department in charge of it at a semiconductor manufacturing plant.

Here is proof, it's just some of the cooling towers at Intel's current site in Chandler: https://www.google.com/maps/@33.2451403,-111.8923691,135m/da...

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#259

Post by celestialcheese »

hosh wrote: post #112
kd913 wrote: post #5

Doesn't chip making a lot of water, most of it in Arizona is fed by Lake Mead? The same reservoir that is at 30% capacity, with acute water shortages and with 4 years of increased precipitation necessary for an adequate refill. We are adding a chip making facility which needs a lot of water here? This sounds like a recipe for disaster whenever there is a period of water stress which appears to be occurring in that re…

I live in Phoenix and have heard some of the local discourse about this. Fabs need a lot of water, like a swimming pool. Once you fill it up, then you need comparatively less to stay operational. Intel has invested in both recycling water as well as partnering with organizations on water conservation and ecology projects. Arizona does draw water from the Colorado River, but among the four states, Arizona is at the bo…

If seismic stability was the primary concern, why not choose a state like Minnesota? (lowest seismic activity in the US) Is it tax / local governments + seismic stability?

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#260

Post by tinco »

j_walter wrote: post #258
spaztastical wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not how that works. Las vegas is full of pools and fountains... INDOORS. they retain the moisture in their enclosed ecosystems. We have ACs that pull water out of the air, and we also know how to make buildings.

You can't just have AC when it comes to industrial cooling. You have to have chillers connected to cooling towers and those work on evaporative cooling. Feel free to debate all day on this though...I literally run the department in charge of it at a semiconductor manufacturing plant. Here is proof, it's just some of the cooling towers at Intel's current site in Chandler: https://www.google.com/maps/@33.2451403,-111.8…

So is the problem then that you can't push enough heat into the air, so you need to evaporate water? Sounds like a nice input to a desalination plant. Does this mean you agree that Arizona is a strange choice?

If they need so much water, does that mean you agree that

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