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Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

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Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#111

Post by fungiblecog »

jklinger410 wrote: post #101
chitowneats wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this mean that you would vote for a candidate who promised to impose meaningful regulations on your industry? Even if that meant harming a company you work for / may have equity in? Is there some other solution to this tracking proliferation? My question assumes you believe the work your industry is doing is unethical but that seems to be implied by your posts.

> Is there some other solution to this tracking proliferation? Not in capitalist countries. Serving someone an ad that is actually relevant to them is good business. The government doesn't need web cookies to find you, they can just call your ISP or your phone carrier, or check surveillance cameras, ask your bank, so-on. No one from these private companies has the time to look at the data, you are just a number to th…

> But the ads you see online are going to suck.

Even with all the profiling the ads still suck.

It amazes me how little insight all this profiling actually gives advertisers. Sure they advertise stuff to me that I'm already searching for, but advertising is supposed to be about brining in new customers. Not advertising a product to me after I've already decided what I want, searched for it, and bought it (or decided I don't want it).

I get ads for weeks after that are a complete waste of the advertiser's money, LOL. I don't think I've EVER bought something online that I didn't know I wanted until I saw an ad...

Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#112

Post by jklinger410 »

chitowneats wrote: post #102
jklinger410 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there some other solution to this tracking proliferation? Not in capitalist countries. Serving someone an ad that is actually relevant to them is good business. The government doesn't need web cookies to find you, they can just call your ISP or your phone carrier, or check surveillance cameras, ask your bank, so-on. No one from these private companies has the time to look at the data, you are just a number to th…

Ah, so you don't find it unethical. Makes sense then you have no qualms accepting your paycheck. For the record, "capitalist" countries can and do regulate businesses. Those that are democracies do so based on the general interest of the citizenry. Unless you consider anything beyond absolute libertarianism to be "not capitalist". I find these semantic arguments often confuse the issue at hand. I would love to pay fo…

I am personally very jaded with the United States' version of capitalism and regulation. This is a country with for-profit healthcare who also run ads. To say the least.

Your voting record, vehicle ownership, and household income, depending on what state you live in, are sold by your state government itself! We have a long way to go when it comes to ethical capitalism in the United States. Too far, actually.

Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#113

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

marketingtech wrote: post #7

This is cool, but not super useful in 2021. Google and Facebook have already moved their tracking technologies beyond frontend network calls due to a rise in browser-level blocking (browser security policies, international regulations, AdBlock, PiHole, etc). The next generation of tracking tech relies on the backend transfer of data between a website and the ad platform, which is invisible to your own network. It als…

"This is cool, but not super useful in 2021."

Why would someone in marketing think this is cool.

"The next generation of tracking tech relies on the backend transfer of data between a website and the ad platform, which is invisible to your own network."

The transfer of data between the user and a website, Google, Facebook or otherwise, is visible to the user.

"It also shifts the story from "Google and Facebook nonconsensually tracking your every digital move through websites and applications" as described in the article into "websites and applications actively transmitting customer data to Google and Facebook.""

Why would websites transfer data to Google and Facebook. I dont know perhaps every website is different. But if I were a website I would only send data to Google or Facebook if Google and Facebook already had some data of their own.

Users who are actively monitoring the data they send to websites can assume that all websites, including but not limited to Google and Facebook, are sharing user data with each other. That doesnt mean we think they are, but there is no way to verify they are not (or to hold them accountable if they were); thus we know they could be exchanging data, without taking much risk.

Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#114

Post by jklinger410 »

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #110
jklinger410 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who works in ads, this is a spot-on summation of the current state of tracking. And that's without getting into how machine learning can use seemingly unrelated data points to learn more about you than you could imagine. At this point if you have even the most basic connections (US bank account, home owner, gps, insurance, a car) the more sophisticated tracking methods can still learn about you and reach y…

"At this point if you have even the most basic connections (US bank account, home owner, gps, insurance, a car) the more sophisticated tracking methods can still learn about you and reach you with a decent success rate." Lots of younger people do not have all of the above. If everyone had all the above, then the statment would not contain "if", it would be a given. But lets assume every living person can be "learned…

Do you have a car registered with the state, a debit card, and a cell phone? A credit score perhaps?

Do you run every single connection to the internet through a VPN service that keeps no records? Do you use TAILS or Qubes OS? Do you actually own your router?

It's a leaky boat.

Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#115

Post by chitowneats »

jklinger410 wrote: post #112
chitowneats wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, so you don't find it unethical. Makes sense then you have no qualms accepting your paycheck. For the record, "capitalist" countries can and do regulate businesses. Those that are democracies do so based on the general interest of the citizenry. Unless you consider anything beyond absolute libertarianism to be "not capitalist". I find these semantic arguments often confuse the issue at hand. I would love to pay fo…

I am personally very jaded with the United States' version of capitalism and regulation. This is a country with for-profit healthcare who also run ads. To say the least. Your voting record, vehicle ownership, and household income, depending on what state you live in, are sold by your state government itself! We have a long way to go when it comes to ethical capitalism in the United States. Too far, actually.

I absolutely agree there is much work to be done. Let's start doing it. I don't see how offering one's talents to these companies is moving us in the right direction. It's not a meaningless act to accept a higher pay check in exchange for working in such an industry. They are paying more because they want solid employees who will work hard. Unless you're there just to throw sand in the gears, I really don't get it.

Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#116

Post by 3np »

samhw wrote: post #68
samstave wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True - however, IMO, the value is in the awareness of tracking and the knowledge of how to block things as such. Its better to know how your network operates that you rely on for your daily life than to know nothing about its internals. My biggest issue as I age is that I FORGET how to do some of the higher level networking that I used to know innately - and I also lose interest in doing such things and become lazy,…

The issue is that people like this fetishise avoiding tracking. It doesn't seem like they have a clear reason why they want to avoid tracking. Do they have sensitive data to hide? Do they ideologically disagree with large companies gathering data? Is it anything else? It honestly doesn't seem like it. It seems more like "stopping them from getting my data" is treated as an end unto itself.

I can’t speak for everyone but there’s a growing awareness of where all the risks to society with gathering and spreading all this data.

It surprises me how someone who understands the inner workings as well as the interactions of the systems that society has increasingly expected us to depend on are not scared shitless of how things will look a generation from now.

Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#117

Post by burnished »

samhw wrote: post #31
shepik wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: is it worth it? Why would you spend your time on managing that temporary white list? Do you think that time is wasted, or not? (I apologize if my phrasing is a bit rude, but i'm really curious about that, and want to understand your thinking)

I think people like this see it as a 'win' – as if they, John Smith, have beaten the dastardly BigCorp. Whereas, in fact, the most that happens is a Junior Marketing Executive at BigCorp says "Right, that guy falls within the 0.5% of techy customers who make things difficult for us. Ah well, it's only been 80,000 of them, well within our margin for this month."

I don't think you know what you are talking about. Here is a link to what they were quoting and might fill you in.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN25.html

Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#118

Post by 3np »

literallyaduck wrote: post #70

Work with your state government to outlaw even consensual tracking, include fines, and make fines also apply to the development staff. The first a step is a "know your developer" act to prevent software creation being anonymous. We have regulation around who can practice medicine, practice law, provide the same regulations to software. Remove the license for developers, business analysts, tech writers and project man…

Code is speech.

Your proposed law sounds more draconian and dangerous to free thought than the thing it’s supposed to prevent, and can be abused to have the opposite effect of what your intentions are.

We need more general technical literacy, not further increasing the gap between those who have and know between those who don’t.

Regulation around tracking, fine, but the consequences seem to far outweigh any benefits with the rest of your proposal.

Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#119

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

cycomanic wrote: post #85
jklinger410 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who works in ads, this is a spot-on summation of the current state of tracking. And that's without getting into how machine learning can use seemingly unrelated data points to learn more about you than you could imagine. At this point if you have even the most basic connections (US bank account, home owner, gps, insurance, a car) the more sophisticated tracking methods can still learn about you and reach y…

So how do you morally justify your work? Do you think this work is valuable? I know I sound confrontational, but I'm seriously wondering about this. In particular because the HN crowd in general has been so highly critical of most adtech, but at the same time a significant portion of people here probably works on it or for one of the companies which are behind it.

Note theres a difference between advertising and surveillance. "Adtech" proponents are likely to conflate the two since adtech relies on surveillance.

Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#120

Post by y4mi »

marketingtech wrote: post #107
cycomanic wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do you morally justify your work? Do you think this work is valuable? I know I sound confrontational, but I'm seriously wondering about this. In particular because the HN crowd in general has been so highly critical of most adtech, but at the same time a significant portion of people here probably works on it or for one of the companies which are behind it.

There are many immoral players in the industry, but there's nothing inherently immoral about advertising. I help people discover products and services that they love. I help thousands of business owners find more customers, so they can support their families and create jobs for others. There's a lot of bad behavior from marketers and sketchy business owners, but I know the work that I'm personally doing has a tangibl…

> but there's nothing inherently immoral about advertising.

That's debatable or at least strongly depends on your definition of advertising.

moral advertisment could in my opinion only tell a person about something when they actually need that thing.

For example telling the person what kind of options are available if a person needs to travel from x to y.

Any other form eventually ends right where we are right now, with with scientists and psychologists trying to figure out how to manipulate people into doing things they wouldn't otherwise.

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