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Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

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Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#101

Post by jklinger410 »

chitowneats wrote: post #96
jklinger410 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I vote with my conscious, but I work for whoever will pay me the most money.

Does this mean that you would vote for a candidate who promised to impose meaningful regulations on your industry? Even if that meant harming a company you work for / may have equity in? Is there some other solution to this tracking proliferation? My question assumes you believe the work your industry is doing is unethical but that seems to be implied by your posts.

> Is there some other solution to this tracking proliferation?

Not in capitalist countries. Serving someone an ad that is actually relevant to them is good business.

The government doesn't need web cookies to find you, they can just call your ISP or your phone carrier, or check surveillance cameras, ask your bank, so-on. No one from these private companies has the time to look at the data, you are just a number to them.

Though it might feel like it, you aren't being spied on in any meaningful sense. You are just being profiled, as a tax to use all of the free services you have access to.

Paid services that don't sell your data are the way to go, if that kind of thing scares you. But the ads you see online are going to suck.

Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#102

Post by chitowneats »

jklinger410 wrote: post #101
chitowneats wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this mean that you would vote for a candidate who promised to impose meaningful regulations on your industry? Even if that meant harming a company you work for / may have equity in? Is there some other solution to this tracking proliferation? My question assumes you believe the work your industry is doing is unethical but that seems to be implied by your posts.

> Is there some other solution to this tracking proliferation? Not in capitalist countries. Serving someone an ad that is actually relevant to them is good business. The government doesn't need web cookies to find you, they can just call your ISP or your phone carrier, or check surveillance cameras, ask your bank, so-on. No one from these private companies has the time to look at the data, you are just a number to th…

Ah, so you don't find it unethical. Makes sense then you have no qualms accepting your paycheck.

For the record, "capitalist" countries can and do regulate businesses. Those that are democracies do so based on the general interest of the citizenry. Unless you consider anything beyond absolute libertarianism to be "not capitalist". I find these semantic arguments often confuse the issue at hand.

I would love to pay for services that don't track me. You mentioned in another comment it's becoming hard to own a car, have a bank account, insurance, without tracking being baked in. I'm interested in ways we can work to change this. I don't subscribe to your belief that there is no solution, or that the level of tracking involved in the status quo is not "meaningful".

Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#103

Post by chitowneats »

jklinger410 wrote: post #98
fortyseven wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that's uh... "cool".

Not everyone can just "choose" what field they want to be in. If I got to choose what I did every day, I'd be a writer or a musician. No ethical concerns there.

You don't have to work in ads or tracking technologies. Unless you are quite junior and needed to accept whoever was willing to take you. But based on your knowledge of the industry it seems you've spent quite a bit of time there.

Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#104

Post by numpad0 »

bgro wrote: post #95
marketingtech wrote: post #7

This is cool, but not super useful in 2021. Google and Facebook have already moved their tracking technologies beyond frontend network calls due to a rise in browser-level blocking (browser security policies, international regulations, AdBlock, PiHole, etc). The next generation of tracking tech relies on the backend transfer of data between a website and the ad platform, which is invisible to your own network. It als…

This is correct. To expand: things like installed extensions, window size (as well as monitor size), bandwidth and general user speed, adblockers themselves and their individual block lists, and browser are all adding to your trackability profile. I believe you can get specific information about user's operating system (either through legitimate, direct checks or by exploiting features and using process of eliminatio…

Is there an easy way to truly defuse various web APIs and anonymize browsers wrt that, except IP? I seem to be maintaining an almost globally unique setup for years judging by various browser privacy awareness tests, despite being a completely uninteresting person.

Should I, for example, use Docker containerized browser exclusively, or somehow use Selenium for all browsing traffic, or do something else drastic to that effect?

Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#105

Post by [deleted] »

jklinger410 wrote: post #101
chitowneats wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this mean that you would vote for a candidate who promised to impose meaningful regulations on your industry? Even if that meant harming a company you work for / may have equity in? Is there some other solution to this tracking proliferation? My question assumes you believe the work your industry is doing is unethical but that seems to be implied by your posts.

> Is there some other solution to this tracking proliferation? Not in capitalist countries. Serving someone an ad that is actually relevant to them is good business. The government doesn't need web cookies to find you, they can just call your ISP or your phone carrier, or check surveillance cameras, ask your bank, so-on. No one from these private companies has the time to look at the data, you are just a number to th…

[deleted]

Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#106

Post by bgro »

numpad0 wrote: post #104
bgro wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is correct. To expand: things like installed extensions, window size (as well as monitor size), bandwidth and general user speed, adblockers themselves and their individual block lists, and browser are all adding to your trackability profile. I believe you can get specific information about user's operating system (either through legitimate, direct checks or by exploiting features and using process of eliminatio…

Is there an easy way to truly defuse various web APIs and anonymize browsers wrt that, except IP? I seem to be maintaining an almost globally unique setup for years judging by various browser privacy awareness tests, despite being a completely uninteresting person. Should I, for example, use Docker containerized browser exclusively, or somehow use Selenium for all browsing traffic, or do something else drastic to tha…

There's so many gotcha-holes that it's nearly impossible to get them all and still have a usable browser. Security updates are also going to keep you updating, and those introduce new unique identity problems.

Is there any way to be fully be anonymous online? No. The best you could do is Tor on a privacy focused operating system on a disposable computer on public wifi, but there are still loose ways to track that activity.

Or just cameras and transaction logs for buying wifi time or a coffee at that place. If you opt to not buy coffee, employees might remember you as the freeloader. If you pay in cash, you might be that only person who uses cash.

Obscurity is the best we can do right now. A virtual setup like docker using a typical setup with a VPN is the current most reasonable solution we have.

However, things like your grammar and sentence structure or even going to your profile instead of the home page before starting to browse are always going to be weak points unless you write a bunch of random "AI" to counteract that.

But then you're just the weird user doing a lot of random "AI"-like things.

Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#107

Post by marketingtech »

cycomanic wrote: post #85
jklinger410 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who works in ads, this is a spot-on summation of the current state of tracking. And that's without getting into how machine learning can use seemingly unrelated data points to learn more about you than you could imagine. At this point if you have even the most basic connections (US bank account, home owner, gps, insurance, a car) the more sophisticated tracking methods can still learn about you and reach y…

So how do you morally justify your work? Do you think this work is valuable? I know I sound confrontational, but I'm seriously wondering about this. In particular because the HN crowd in general has been so highly critical of most adtech, but at the same time a significant portion of people here probably works on it or for one of the companies which are behind it.

There are many immoral players in the industry, but there's nothing inherently immoral about advertising.

I help people discover products and services that they love.

I help thousands of business owners find more customers, so they can support their families and create jobs for others.

There's a lot of bad behavior from marketers and sketchy business owners, but I know the work that I'm personally doing has a tangible, positive impact on the lives of thousands of people.

Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#108

Post by wahnfrieden »

chitowneats wrote: post #102
jklinger410 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there some other solution to this tracking proliferation? Not in capitalist countries. Serving someone an ad that is actually relevant to them is good business. The government doesn't need web cookies to find you, they can just call your ISP or your phone carrier, or check surveillance cameras, ask your bank, so-on. No one from these private companies has the time to look at the data, you are just a number to th…

Ah, so you don't find it unethical. Makes sense then you have no qualms accepting your paycheck. For the record, "capitalist" countries can and do regulate businesses. Those that are democracies do so based on the general interest of the citizenry. Unless you consider anything beyond absolute libertarianism to be "not capitalist". I find these semantic arguments often confuse the issue at hand. I would love to pay fo…

> "capitalist" countries can and do regulate businesses. Those that are democracies do so based on the general interest of the citizenry

You have a strong reading of the level of citizen constituency at play in these neoliberal corporate welfare states

Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#109

Post by chitowneats »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #108
chitowneats wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, so you don't find it unethical. Makes sense then you have no qualms accepting your paycheck. For the record, "capitalist" countries can and do regulate businesses. Those that are democracies do so based on the general interest of the citizenry. Unless you consider anything beyond absolute libertarianism to be "not capitalist". I find these semantic arguments often confuse the issue at hand. I would love to pay fo…

> "capitalist" countries can and do regulate businesses. Those that are democracies do so based on the general interest of the citizenry You have a strong reading of the level of citizen constituency at play in these neoliberal corporate welfare states

This type of cynicism about countries like Canada and the U.S. is unwarranted when looking at the full sweep of history. Progress was made in the past. All is not lost.

Re: Sirubo: Packet filtering to block Google and Facebook tracking

#110

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

jklinger410 wrote: post #46
marketingtech wrote: post #7

This is cool, but not super useful in 2021. Google and Facebook have already moved their tracking technologies beyond frontend network calls due to a rise in browser-level blocking (browser security policies, international regulations, AdBlock, PiHole, etc). The next generation of tracking tech relies on the backend transfer of data between a website and the ad platform, which is invisible to your own network. It als…

As someone who works in ads, this is a spot-on summation of the current state of tracking. And that's without getting into how machine learning can use seemingly unrelated data points to learn more about you than you could imagine. At this point if you have even the most basic connections (US bank account, home owner, gps, insurance, a car) the more sophisticated tracking methods can still learn about you and reach y…

"At this point if you have even the most basic connections (US bank account, home owner, gps, insurance, a car) the more sophisticated tracking methods can still learn about you and reach you with a decent success rate."

Lots of younger people do not have all of the above. If everyone had all the above, then the statment would not contain "if", it would be a given. But lets assume every living person can be "learned about" and "reached". That does not necessarily mean every person is worth learning about or reaching. This sounds very much like a person with a heap of surveillance data trying to make it sound valuable.

"It's just that most companies are using crap ad tech."

As an unwise HN commenter once said, "The market has spoken." :)

"... and reach you with a decent success rate."

How effective is "decent".

Why should I pay for this.

No doubt people are working hard trying to improve surveillance and are making progress against users who havent a clue whats going on, nor any interest in getting one. Kudos for the easy victory. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

But whats the point in trying to surveil someone like Mr Peguero. Hes not hiding his identity or location, or his preferences (Silicon Valley is garbage).

If "adtech" surveillance succeeds against someone blocking Google IPs, then what. Whats the end game.

Anyone who is willing to take the time to block Big Tech with a firewall is, IMHO, unlikely to be a very profitable ad target.

Advertisers should only care about people who are likely to spend money on their products/services. However people conducting blanket surveillance trying to pitch to advertisers ("adtech"), they are the ones who have an interest in arguing, honestly or dishonestly, that every last "identified" individual is a worthy ad target. If I am an advertiser, I am not going to be particularly interested in trying to advertise online to someone who is running OpenBSD or blocking Google IPs with nftables.

Individuals like the OP are proactively saying, "No, thank you." (The OP is actually saying "FU".)

Personally I find its quite easy to control/limit/stop data transfer initiated by websites/popular_browsers using a forward proxy. And I can use AI, too.

However I think blocking 8.8.8.8 and other Google IPs at the firewall is also good practice, not necessarily to stop ads/tracking by websites but to limit the users resources available to Google. Given their incentives and the fact we as users do not pay them like advertisers do, I think its naive to trust Google's employees will, for example, always honour the system DNS settings.

Unrelated but its possible that many OpenWRT users using default settings are actually pinging 8.8.8.8

https://github.com/openwrt/packages/blob/master/net/mwan3/fi...

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