Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up • Hacker News Board

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#201

Post by caeril » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 5:45 PM UTC

arcticfox wrote: post #172

TrueDuality wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're taking raw untreated river/lake/aquifer water, purifying it to an incredible degree for the fab. When they use the water it gets cleaned again. Now that water can either be returned to the river/lake/aquifer or if you clean it sufficiently well it can go straight into municipal drinking water supplies. That's how this fresh water comes out of nowhere.

That doesn't seem right. As far as I know, rivers/lakes/aquifers are pretty much the definition of fresh water.

Maricopa and Pinal counties have lots of agricultural water that either comes directly off the Colorado river via canal, or is pumped from shallow alfalfa field runoff groundwater that is too full of nitrates to be even remotely potable.

We also, unlike the CA Central Valley or the Midwest who are apparently cool with depleting their resources as fast as humanly possible, are acutely aware of our groundwater supply constraints, given that we live in a desert, and practice a lot of aquifer recharge and management.

Intel cleans it, uses it, and dumps it into aquifer recharge, which cleans it even further.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#202

Post by sumtechguy » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

hosh wrote: post #139

throwaway894345 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel a bit of tension. I'm not a big fan of people using water to grow grass in the desert, but I'm also not a big fan of making tens or hundreds of thousands of people sacrifice so that one large corporation can profit. Yeah, I know that chip manufacturing helps everyone by improving our economic independence, and that's not a small thing, but we're already writing Intel a big check and they obviously benefit from…

I used to get so mad about people growing lawns here in Phoenix until I discovered that Burmuda grass will tenaciously grow with little irrigation, and that some kind of vegetation is better for water retention in soil than bare dirt. As I mentioned in my longer comment elsewhere, Arizona is seismically stable, and fabs don’t need specialized structures when using advanced process nodes. The biggest misuse of water r…

I switched out my whole yard to zoysia (which is one of those creeping vine grasses like Bermuda). I picked it over Bermuda because it grows in thicker. I went from watering at least once a week to maybe once or twice a year if at all. That is in a area with an ok amount of rain.

I liked this type of grass as it grows relatively slowly which means about half the amount of mowing needed to be done. Low water (less than Bermuda), kills most weeds (less pesticides and weed killers), less mowing, those are the upsides. Downsides are turns yellow in October and does not turn green until the end of april (not HOA friendly), and like most creeping vine grasses is invasive and hard to get rid of if you do not like it, it also grows very poorly in shaded areas. Aggressive trimming is also needed when it reaches walkways, streets, driveways, and the side of your house.

I also spent a good amount of time building up a decent bed for the grass to grow in with mulching and proper aeration. Another thing I did was to make sure I had a good mix of the correct type of insects, moss, worms, and transplanted from local areas potting soils for other bits in the soil, trying to keep area and the type of grass in mind. As the original builder had scraped off the good stuff, leaving me with clay and rocks and rye grass, then took it to another site before I bought the place. This helped tremendously with the soil. Though I could have done better on my homework with that.

Depending on where you live, what sort of rain you get, and the soil types, this can be a 1 year job or a 10 year job. It really takes time to do.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#203

Post by softfalcon » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

j_walter wrote: post #191

hosh wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Phoenix and have heard some of the local discourse about this. Fabs need a lot of water, like a swimming pool. Once you fill it up, then you need comparatively less to stay operational. Intel has invested in both recycling water as well as partnering with organizations on water conservation and ecology projects. Arizona does draw water from the Colorado River, but among the four states, Arizona is at the bo…

>Fabs need a lot of water, like a swimming pool. Once you fill it up, then you need comparatively less to stay operational. This is just not true. The amount of cooling required for fabs is extremely significant and without major evaporative cooling you can't get it. With evaporative cooling comes water loss...and not a small amount of it, especially in the desert. You can do a lot to recycle water that is used in th…

You’re right, fabs need more water than a swimming pool, maybe a big swimming pool.

The fabs in Arizona are likely not going to be the main cause of water shortages there. How do I know this? Cause when Motorola had its massive (and inefficient) fabs running there in the 90’s-00’s and there were water shortages, they kept running just fine off their on premise reserves.

Modern fabs are even more efficient with water usage.

I know this because I have visited the old fabs and they are quite good at re-using and capturing the water since it’s inside an air controlled bunker. Modern (and older) fabs aren’t open to air, so water loss is minimal.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#204

Post by brewdad » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

1234letshaveatw wrote: post #98

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel has built fabs in Arizona for a long time, this isn’t a new thing. They do this because of seismic stability and a lack of severe weather. Water isn’t a huge concern because they can internally recycle most of it.

vs. somewhere like Ohio? It is hard to believe moderate snowfall would override environmental externalities such as cooling costs and water use.

A thunderstorm will wreak havoc on a fab. A single, power blip lasting less a second can ruin whatever chips were being processed. At a minimum there will need to be additional testing done to ensure there is no hidden damage.

The thunderstorms that central AZ gets are extremely isolated and basically only happen for about 6 weeks a year.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#205

Post by softfalcon » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 5:57 PM UTC

bloopernova wrote: post #2

Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't you want to build a semiconductor fabrication factory somewhere cold? Or is it because Arizona is dry? (honest questions, I don't know what impacts the location of a fab)

Arizona has a few major things going for it:

- lack of seismic activity

- very cheap, flat, easily excavated land

- rich history of fab production (see: Motorola) which provides the necessary city infra, construction groups, supply distribution to build such fabs

- consistently dry climate that despite being hot, is easily controlled for humidity

- numerous tax and subsidy enticements to do business there

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#206

Post by bcrosby95 » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 6:00 PM UTC

hosh wrote: post #139

throwaway894345 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel a bit of tension. I'm not a big fan of people using water to grow grass in the desert, but I'm also not a big fan of making tens or hundreds of thousands of people sacrifice so that one large corporation can profit. Yeah, I know that chip manufacturing helps everyone by improving our economic independence, and that's not a small thing, but we're already writing Intel a big check and they obviously benefit from…

I used to get so mad about people growing lawns here in Phoenix until I discovered that Burmuda grass will tenaciously grow with little irrigation, and that some kind of vegetation is better for water retention in soil than bare dirt. As I mentioned in my longer comment elsewhere, Arizona is seismically stable, and fabs don’t need specialized structures when using advanced process nodes. The biggest misuse of water r…

It also helps with the heat island effect.

But yeah, there's lots of different types of grasses that are OK to have in arid climates. But most lawns in my region (socal) aren't these special grasses. Subterranean irrigation can help too.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#207

Post by brewdad » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 6:00 PM UTC

TimTheTinker wrote: post #142

matheusmoreira wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Water should be a basic human right. No human should ever be priced out. Whatever infrastructure is needed to bring potable water to people, the government should pay for it. The whole point of governments is to pay for basic infrastructure like this. Taxes ought to fund something other than politician corruption. Corporations on the other hand have no human rights at all. They can and should be priced out.

> The whole point of governments is to pay for basic infrastructure like this. That's a pretty steep oversimplification there. Governments usually exist to promote justice and rule-of-law, keep people safe from internal and external threats to their physical safety, and to protect individual freedoms and liberty. Paying for infrastructure is only a small part of all of that.

Wouldn't ensuring a reliable supply of safe drinking water fall under keeping people safe from threats to their physical safety?

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#208

Post by xxpor » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 6:05 PM UTC

brewdad wrote: post #198

xxpor wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the rough residential rate in AZ? Here in Seattle (obviously a MUCH different situation wrt water availability) I pay $6.96 per CCF (748.052 US gal, 3400 L). Even if every tree used an entire CCF over a season, that'd still be trivial compared to the amount of nuts you'd get (I assume)

It's been almost 20 years but when I lived in Phoenix (and had a lawn) my water bill was about $25 a month. Now in the PNW, using a similar amount of water, my water bill is about $100 a month. Water is heavily subsidized in AZ. There is little incentive to conserve it.

Are you actually spending that much on water though? Or water and sewer? Sewer is a lot (~$18 per CCF, iirc) more expensive. Farmers wouldn't have to pay that. Don't disagree about water in the SW being stupidly subsidized of course.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#209

Post by lazide » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 6:06 PM UTC

dntrkv wrote: post #106

IgorPartola wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A thousand years from now your last sentence will be a proverb if unknown origin.

Israel, UAE, and the Saudis have figured it out, you really think the US can't? Arizona is close to the ocean and has plenty of sunlight. Solar power + desalination will make this a non-issue in the next 40 years.

UAE and the Saudis are desperately diversifying their economies and the royal families of those countries are desperately extracting wealth from those nations because they know their current approaches are fundamentally economically unviable without very high margin oil - and the market value, margins, and quantity available of that oil long term is highly suspect.

Israel is also investing heavily in knowledge work and other high margin industries, as well as investing outside the country, in an attempt to get high margin, high value income to offset the dangerous economic risks they have, in part due to limited and expensive water - and which for very strong and fundamental religious reasons still gives a very, very strong incentive for them to stay and stay functional. Israel in particular has a history of wars and armed conflict around the Jordan River (November 1964 to May 1967 and others).

There is a saying in the West - Whiskey is for drinkin', water is for fightin' - and it is very apparent how true it is if you watch how things develop over time. Water is life in the desert.

Re: Intel breaks ground on $20B Arizona plants as U.S. chip factory race heats up

#210

Post by brewdad » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 6:09 PM UTC

xxpor wrote: post #208

brewdad wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been almost 20 years but when I lived in Phoenix (and had a lawn) my water bill was about $25 a month. Now in the PNW, using a similar amount of water, my water bill is about $100 a month. Water is heavily subsidized in AZ. There is little incentive to conserve it.

Are you actually spending that much on water though? Or water and sewer? Sewer is a lot (~$18 per CCF, iirc) more expensive. Farmers wouldn't have to pay that. Don't disagree about water in the SW being stupidly subsidized of course.

Yes sewer is a lot but I was paying for sewer in both places. Maybe Phoenix wasn't bothering to put any money away for future repairs.