Half of American kids have lead in their blood, doctors say • Hacker News Board

Re: Half of American kids have lead in their blood, doctors say

#121

Post by tdeck » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 5:41 PM UTC

krrrh wrote: post #78

djoldman wrote: post #44

How about Chicago: > The biggest reason is that essentially Chicago and other cities around Illinois required the use of lead service lines all the way until 1986, long after it was recognized that lead was poisonous and other cities had stopped using it. A decade after other cities had stopped using it Chicago and other cities in Illinois were not only using it but requiring the use of lead long after everybody else…

It seems like the lead blood level indicator has been removed from this site, but a friend showed me this map of homicide rates vs one with lead levels from 18 years prior[0] and there was a pretty strong correlation. Obviously there are confounders, but Kevin Drum’s decade old article positing that lead was a major contributor to the crime wave and subsequent reduction is pretty compelling. [1] EDIT: aside, but mayb…

I couldn't get your second link to work (just takes me to a generic homepage) but I found this study:

https://annalsofglobalhealth.org/articles/10.5334/aogh.2754/

Re: Half of American kids have lead in their blood, doctors say

#122

Post by throwaway0a5e » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #99

floor2 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why the "right vs left" style of thinking drives me crazy. Unions are constantly doing evil things, usually for the same greedy and power-hungry reasons as any corporate board, and to the same detriment of society at large, but because we think of unions as being on "our side" and latch onto this romanticized notion of the unions of the 1800s they get a pass. The police and prison guard unions constantly do h…

It's not nearly as symmetric as you're making it out to be. In terms of overall welfare, an additional dollar in the pocket of a typical union worker is going to be more welfare enhancing than that additional dollar in the pocket of the typical owner. This is from just basic diminishing marginal utility of the dollar. Of course , unions can do awful, evil things - they are organizations of people and people are petty…

You completely ignored his point. It's not about who's pockets the dollars wind up in. It's about not permitting groups to harm everyone else.

Re: Half of American kids have lead in their blood, doctors say

#123

Post by lovich » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

moftz wrote: post #116

whimsicalism wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me know the next time I can vote to have my CEO replaced, thanks :)

In an employee owned corporation, you would get some say in leadership. Although it's possible that in a large enough corporation, it would be an indirect democracy. You vote for board members who vote for the company leadership.

While various municipalities and nations might classify co-ops as corporations legal wise, I don’t think the average person jumps to thinking of a co-op when you say corporation

Re: Half of American kids have lead in their blood, doctors say

#124

Post by KorematsuFredt » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

floor2 wrote: post #86

dwohnitmok wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly enough, of all the environmental hazards caused by large corporations, here's a rare example of one where this was primarily caused by a union, which while not opposed to the overall removal of lead, demanded the use of pipes which required specialized knowledge to install, which precluded non-brazed copper and plastic pipes used elsewhere in the nation, and effectively made lead pipes the only viable o…

This is why the "right vs left" style of thinking drives me crazy. Unions are constantly doing evil things, usually for the same greedy and power-hungry reasons as any corporate board, and to the same detriment of society at large, but because we think of unions as being on "our side" and latch onto this romanticized notion of the unions of the 1800s they get a pass. The police and prison guard unions constantly do h…

Right to association is a fundamental American value something that American conservatives must value and something that Libertarians have always valued.

There is no argument that employees should have the right to form an association. The problems arise when such associations get "special privileges" that an average worker does not. Both L and R talk a lot about "equality of law" but happily shred that principle when it comes to their own voter groups.

Nearly all the evil (as you describe it) caused by unions is eventually due to the collective bargaining rights and other privileges.

In the words of Milton Friedman, unions do not protect workers. The competition protects workers. Market competition is the biggest rival to unions and hence unions will go to extreme lengths to prevent this sort of competition to keep themselves relevant. This does immense harm to workers as well as society in the long term. Folks like me who have seen extreme violence unleashed by workers unions end up despising very notion of unions for the same reason.

Re: Half of American kids have lead in their blood, doctors say

#125

Post by tdeck » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

gwbas1c wrote: post #10

wallawe wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another source of lead, unfortunately, is in children's toys. Yeah this was going to be my question, is where is the lead coming from? Water, toys, what else? Having a 4 week old, seeing this concerns me so I'd love to do what I can to avoid it.

It's in the solder used to join pipes together. Even after "lead pipes" were banned in the US, it was still used to join copper pipe together. It's also in solder used in electronics, although I doubt that half of American children have a parent who regularly solders at home.

Modern mass-market electronics have been made with lead-free solder for a long time because of RoHS regulations (I believe this is an EU thing but most manufacturers have retooled everything to be lead-free). I'd argue that electronics solder is a lot less of a concern anyway since it's usually only in hard-to-reach places. It's a major concern for disposal, however.

Re: Half of American kids have lead in their blood, doctors say

#126

Post by whimsicalism » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #120

whimsicalism wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not nearly as symmetric as you're making it out to be. In terms of overall welfare, an additional dollar in the pocket of a typical union worker is going to be more welfare enhancing than that additional dollar in the pocket of the typical owner. This is from just basic diminishing marginal utility of the dollar. Of course , unions can do awful, evil things - they are organizations of people and people are petty…

> In terms of overall welfare, an additional dollar in the pocket of a typical union worker is going to be more welfare enhancing than that additional dollar in the pocket of the typical owner. Maybe, but printing a dollar and giving it to a union worker causes worse inflation than printing a dollar and giving it to an owner.

Nobody said anything about printing.

Re: Half of American kids have lead in their blood, doctors say

#127

Post by whimsicalism » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #122

whimsicalism wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not nearly as symmetric as you're making it out to be. In terms of overall welfare, an additional dollar in the pocket of a typical union worker is going to be more welfare enhancing than that additional dollar in the pocket of the typical owner. This is from just basic diminishing marginal utility of the dollar. Of course , unions can do awful, evil things - they are organizations of people and people are petty…

You completely ignored his point. It's not about who's pockets the dollars wind up in. It's about not permitting groups to harm everyone else.

Or rather, you completely ignored the second half of my comment :)

To reiterate, I would support voters being able to decide military policy, even if the alternative was a peaceful oligarchy.

Re: Half of American kids have lead in their blood, doctors say

#128

Post by WalterBright » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #97

WalterBright wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are simply businesses that make labor available to companies. Any notion that they are something different from a business is mistaken. Attempts by unions to use government to make themselves legal monopolies are just as bad as any other business using government to do that.

Let me know the next time I can vote to have my CEO replaced, thanks :)

You can vote your shares.

Re: Half of American kids have lead in their blood, doctors say

#129

Post by throwaway894345 » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 5:59 PM UTC

da_chicken wrote: post #112

whimsicalism wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not nearly as symmetric as you're making it out to be. In terms of overall welfare, an additional dollar in the pocket of a typical union worker is going to be more welfare enhancing than that additional dollar in the pocket of the typical owner. This is from just basic diminishing marginal utility of the dollar. Of course , unions can do awful, evil things - they are organizations of people and people are petty…

> In terms of overall welfare, an additional dollar in the pocket of a typical union worker is going to be more welfare enhancing than that additional dollar in the pocket of the typical owner. This is from just basic diminishing marginal utility of the dollar. Remarkably few people seem to truly understand what "marginal propensity to consume" actually means. Economically, money saved is money lost. Money invested i…

I'll admit while I'm inclined to believe that it's better to distribute money to workers rather than investors, I don't understand the economic mechanics that makes this true.

I do understand that the rich aren't gong to spend as much as the middle and lower classes, but I don't have a good answer for the predictable trickle-down rebuttal: the wealthy will invest rather than spend, and that investment funds jobs which put money in the pockets of the poor (but perhaps more so in the pockets of the rich?). You sort of touch on that: "consumption is what drives the economy", but I think the trickle-down economics folks would agree and argue that their job-creation-via-investment results in increased consumption? I have a headache.

Re: Half of American kids have lead in their blood, doctors say

#130

Post by nate_meurer » Tue, Sep 28, 2021, 5:59 PM UTC

jeffbee wrote: post #66

flurie wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have another surprising addition to that list: Christmas lights.

All high-temperature wire insulation contains lead. But are these significant sources of available environmental lead?

No, a lot of PVC wire insulation contains no lead. For example, all wire meant to be sold in the EU must be ROHS complaint, and thus contain no lead. Many US manufacturers are also compliant, and the number is growing. Many manufacturers state this explicitly on their websites (e.g. Tripp Lite and Southwire, to take two random examples). Many others can be identified by either an RoHS designation or lack of CA Prop 65 warning for lead.

The answer to your second question is yes, handling cords with heavily leaded insulation can cause significant amounts of lead to rub off on your hands. This is easily seen with a Lead-Check swab, which will turn red when wiped either on the cord, or even on your fingers after you've spent some time handling the cord.