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Canadian military saw pandemic as opportunity to test propaganda techniques

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Re: Canadian military saw pandemic as opportunity to test propaganda techniques

#91

Post by makomk »

sofixa wrote: post #84
lithium_throw wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely has. I maintain that without social media, which simultaneously provided a way into everyone's thoughts, and also contented people with a feeling of connectedness while living under house arrest conditions of historic proportions, people would have simply rejected the whole campaign of Covid restrictions.

Quarantines and lockdowns have been used throughout history to combat epidemics, with great success. Why do you think that the only thing that made people accept the latest ones is social media?

As far as I can tell, lockdowns that were this widespread and restrictive have never been used before in history ever, the closest examples to them were during the medieval era but were still more targetted and limited in scope than these ones, and the narrative about them always having been used is itself a propaganda tool used to stop people questioning them.

Re: Canadian military saw pandemic as opportunity to test propaganda techniques

#92

Post by sofixa »

mdp2021 wrote: post #88
sofixa wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quarantines and lockdowns have been used throughout history to combat epidemics, with great success. Why do you think that the only thing that made people accept the latest ones is social media?

Has Canada, a territory of extremely low population density, been under strict stay-at-home orders - prohibiting not "to see other people", but just to leave the house? I remember the months-old anecdote of a policeman accusing a driver, while fining him, to have put the community at risk, because in case of car accident he would have forced human interaction. I am not sure - I have little information. So, right: if…

> Has Canada, a territory of extremely low population density, been under strict stay-at-home orders - prohibiting not "to see other people", but just to leave the house

It doesn't seem to be the case - during the Spanish flu pandemic, there was no central health authority and every municipality deal with it however they could, usually by shutting down everything non-essential and mandating masks. However the patchy response resulted in lots of deaths, and thus precipitated the creation of a federal health department.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-mandatory-mas...

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/1918-spani...

Re: Canadian military saw pandemic as opportunity to test propaganda techniques

#93

Post by lithium_throw »

sofixa wrote: post #84
lithium_throw wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely has. I maintain that without social media, which simultaneously provided a way into everyone's thoughts, and also contented people with a feeling of connectedness while living under house arrest conditions of historic proportions, people would have simply rejected the whole campaign of Covid restrictions.

Quarantines and lockdowns have been used throughout history to combat epidemics, with great success. Why do you think that the only thing that made people accept the latest ones is social media?

Your other comment got removed, probably for being overtly hostile and lacking in any objective facts or evidence. Here is my reply anyway:

The IFR of Covid overall is very low (0.4%, by some estimates). If you are under 50, it's basically not worth worrying about. Is that the BS you are talking about? Find me some actual numbers on those things you describe, and not just fear-laden imagery spread in the media and online, or I'll stick to my opinions of who is spreading BS.

My local health district currently is at 75% capacity. It has also treated fewer patients than average every month since March 2020. In fact, my country turned out huge numbers of old folks into nursing homes where they all spread Covid and died while we were shut up in our houses to "protect grannie". Blindly following the "protect the hospitals" mantra has caused huge healthcare issues where I live (UK), and will possibly cause the failure of our socialised healthcare system as we know it. Hospitals currently have single-digit percentages of Covid patients, yet cannot get anyone else treated because of the absurd amount of Covid restrictions. In my principality (Wales), it was recently published that the backlog of cancer patients will take a decade to clear (obviously, those patients will just die).

It was quite quickly discovered that the most effective care for a Covid patient was fairly simple - bed rest, and low-flow oxygen. Healthcare was not limited by bed numbers or equipment.

Re: Canadian military saw pandemic as opportunity to test propaganda techniques

#94

Post by sofixa »

makomk wrote: post #91
sofixa wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quarantines and lockdowns have been used throughout history to combat epidemics, with great success. Why do you think that the only thing that made people accept the latest ones is social media?

As far as I can tell, lockdowns that were this widespread and restrictive have never been used before in history ever, the closest examples to them were during the medieval era but were still more targetted and limited in scope than these ones, and the narrative about them always having been used is itself a propaganda tool used to stop people questioning them.

> As far as I can tell, lockdowns that were this widespread and restrictive have never been used before in history ever, the closest examples to them were during the medieval era but were still more targetted and limited in scope than these ones

Yes, because usually up until present day they were used at the city-level, by city authorities. Why? Well, most epidemic-capable diseases came from trade, usually in port cities, hence quarantines and lockdowns of port cities. ( not to mention that countries and their administration were much less centralised, public health authorities didn't really exist)

But today, with air travel, and the much more connected nature of our existence ( people travel for leisure, a lot), combined with the specifics of the virus ( long incubation period, high chance of no symptoms whatsoever, high spreadability), made country-wide lockdowns a good idea.

Were they a bit too much in some cases? Of course. For instance in France, during the first wave there was a total lockdown, and public places like beaches and parks were closed. There were people complaining in the Brittany region, because they had zero cases ( apart from those transferred to their hospitals), and couldn't use their beaches which are huge and open air. Nonetheless, the risk that the virus "escapes" from hospitals, or that people from nearby regions travel there to use the regional exceptions, and spread the disease further was deemed to be too big. Because, again, many carriers are asymptomatic and the incubation period is rather long.

Re: Canadian military saw pandemic as opportunity to test propaganda techniques

#95

Post by lithium_throw »

sofixa wrote: post #94
makomk wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell, lockdowns that were this widespread and restrictive have never been used before in history ever, the closest examples to them were during the medieval era but were still more targetted and limited in scope than these ones, and the narrative about them always having been used is itself a propaganda tool used to stop people questioning them.

> As far as I can tell, lockdowns that were this widespread and restrictive have never been used before in history ever, the closest examples to them were during the medieval era but were still more targetted and limited in scope than these ones Yes, because usually up until present day they were used at the city-level, by city authorities. Why? Well, most epidemic-capable diseases came from trade, usually in port ci…

Ah yes, the asymptomatic aspect of Covid, a disease so deadly most people need to be tested to know they came near it.

How did the "connected" nature of our existence make it necessary to shut down entire countries, as well as the air travel links? My local playgrounds were officially closed until late into 2020 (obviously, I ignored that), as well as all sorts of other places that were obviously harmless. In fact, the worst place to go was hospital, where the infection rate was pretty bad.

It became obvious quite quickly who was at risk of Covid, and I do not understand why patients were not sent home for bed rest with a portable low-flow oxygen kit (as that was found to be the most effective treatment), and the rest of us allowed to continue with life as we saw fit.

Re: Canadian military saw pandemic as opportunity to test propaganda techniques

#96

Post by sofixa »

lithium_throw wrote: post #93
sofixa wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quarantines and lockdowns have been used throughout history to combat epidemics, with great success. Why do you think that the only thing that made people accept the latest ones is social media?

Your other comment got removed, probably for being overtly hostile and lacking in any objective facts or evidence. Here is my reply anyway: The IFR of Covid overall is very low (0.4%, by some estimates). If you are under 50, it's basically not worth worrying about. Is that the BS you are talking about? Find me some actual numbers on those things you describe, and not just fear-laden imagery spread in the media and on…

> Find me some actual numbers on those things you describe, and not just fear-laden imagery spread in the media and online, or I'll stick to my opinions of who is spreading BS.

So you think that the makeshift morgues and people dying in the streets was just a media operation? Hospitals were over capacity in many places, if you have a hard time believing this you really are trying to hard to ignore reality.

Here are the numbers for France, since March 2020 - https://www.data.gouv.fr/fr/datasets/synthese-des-indicateur...

All in French, but Google Translate should help you. The column you're searching for is TO (Taux d'occupation, occupancy rate). You can see it's over 1 many times, in many different regions, for weeks at a time. And this is in a country that did heavy lockdowns the first two times, and then very strict curfews (18h at one time). It doesn't matter that for people under 50 in perfect health the mortality rate is minimal - if the hospitals and emergency services are over capacity, those people can't get help for anything. And of course that's discounting the fact that even many U50s have comorbidities.

> It was quite quickly discovered that the most effective care for a Covid patient was fairly simple - bed rest, and low-flow oxygen. Healthcare was not limited by bed numbers or equipment.

And where do those beds and oxygen come from? Are they not "bed numbers and equipment"?

Your country is an unmitigated disaster managed by clowns. And even they realised that lockdowns are needed after weeks of insisting on the opposite. Why do you think that is?

Re: Canadian military saw pandemic as opportunity to test propaganda techniques

#97

Post by sofixa »

lithium_throw wrote: post #95
sofixa wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As far as I can tell, lockdowns that were this widespread and restrictive have never been used before in history ever, the closest examples to them were during the medieval era but were still more targetted and limited in scope than these ones Yes, because usually up until present day they were used at the city-level, by city authorities. Why? Well, most epidemic-capable diseases came from trade, usually in port ci…

Ah yes, the asymptomatic aspect of Covid, a disease so deadly most people need to be tested to know they came near it. How did the "connected" nature of our existence make it necessary to shut down entire countries, as well as the air travel links? My local playgrounds were officially closed until late into 2020 (obviously, I ignored that), as well as all sorts of other places that were obviously harmless. In fact, t…

> Ah yes, the asymptomatic aspect of Covid, a disease so deadly most people need to be tested to know they came near it.

Wow. Yes, because while you might have zero symptoms, you still spread it, and will probably infect multiple other people ( the so called R), especially without masks and other such precautions. Those people will infect many more in their turn. Among those, some will develop symptoms, sometimes heavy, and it's highly probable there will be people with comorbidities who can die even with abundant care, which isn't a given if hospitals are full from all those with heavy cases.

> My local playgrounds were officially closed until late into 2020 (obviously, I ignored that), as well as all sorts of other places that were obviously harmless

The point of those restrictions was to stop people from meeting, at all. Of course parks are a better place to be than a store, Covid-wise, but not if you gather in groups.

> How did the "connected" nature of our existence make it necessary to shut down entire countries, as well as the air travel links

People travel between cities, all around the world, daily. Whereas before there'd be a few traders going from Milan to Geneva in the space of a few weeks, now you have multiple daily trains with hundreds of people each. Don't you see how that changes the equation and how that helps spread a virus which is usually without symptoms ?

Re: Canadian military saw pandemic as opportunity to test propaganda techniques

#99

Post by lithium_throw »

sofixa wrote: post #96
lithium_throw wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your other comment got removed, probably for being overtly hostile and lacking in any objective facts or evidence. Here is my reply anyway: The IFR of Covid overall is very low (0.4%, by some estimates). If you are under 50, it's basically not worth worrying about. Is that the BS you are talking about? Find me some actual numbers on those things you describe, and not just fear-laden imagery spread in the media and on…

> Find me some actual numbers on those things you describe, and not just fear-laden imagery spread in the media and online, or I'll stick to my opinions of who is spreading BS. So you think that the makeshift morgues and people dying in the streets was just a media operation? Hospitals were over capacity in many places, if you have a hard time believing this you really are trying to hard to ignore reality. Here are t…

Which makeshift morgues? Which people dying in the streets? Remember that video from China in early 2020, showing people literally dropping in the street? You can't be talking about that, surely.

>And where do those beds and oxygen come from? Are they not "bed numbers and equipment"?

Remember how I explained that the total number of patients treated every month in the UK since March 2020 is less than average?[1] It very clearly follows that we were not limited by beds.

>Your country is an unmitigated disaster managed by clowns.

Yet it has a Covid mortality rate per capita of around the same as most other developed countries. Admittedly a little on the high side, although the US has now overtaken the UK in recent months. Certainly about the same as France and Spain.

[1] https://digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/sta..., click on the link under "Provisional Monthly Hospital Episode Statistics for Admitted Patient Care and Outpatients Dashboard ", and then go to page 2 of the silly web app. Observe how the NHS runs at near 100% capacity, until March 2020, when it has run consistently less than that (and continues to do so).

Re: Canadian military saw pandemic as opportunity to test propaganda techniques

#100

Post by mdp2021 »

sofixa wrote: post #97
lithium_throw wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, the asymptomatic aspect of Covid, a disease so deadly most people need to be tested to know they came near it. How did the "connected" nature of our existence make it necessary to shut down entire countries, as well as the air travel links? My local playgrounds were officially closed until late into 2020 (obviously, I ignored that), as well as all sorts of other places that were obviously harmless. In fact, t…

> Ah yes, the asymptomatic aspect of Covid, a disease so deadly most people need to be tested to know they came near it. Wow. Yes, because while you might have zero symptoms, you still spread it, and will probably infect multiple other people ( the so called R), especially without masks and other such precautions. Those people will infect many more in their turn. Among those, some will develop symptoms, sometimes hea…

> The point of those restrictions was to stop people from meeting, at all. Of course parks are a better place to be than a store, Covid-wise, but not if you gather in groups.

So the idea of the citizen in these - sorry, _decadent_ - societies is not that of an educated, rational and reasonable (with voting rights) agent who will act responsibly and with appropriate proportionate care,

but that of an unreliable liability which will act with the property and wisdom of a problematic child. ("They could go in the wilderness but then they may mingle".)

A few of us will ask: so, where is dignified Society to be found nowadays?

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