Why are restaurant websites so awful? Because of restaurant culture. • Hacker News Board

Re: Why are restaurant websites so awful? Because of restaurant culture.

#111

Post by mgkimsal » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 12:43 PM UTC

ZoFreX wrote: post #100

mwexler wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A lot of low-end websites are still in that quagmire, but the meat of it is that you don't need to visit the website for most of these businesses but for restaurants the web has become critical, so you notice it more. Ummm... isn't that all the more reason to make sure it's accessible on a mobile, is enticing to the user with relevant content, and assists them in making a sale (reservation) with ease?

Yes, but a business barely ticking over can't afford to drop 10k on a website to draw in what, 10% more people? How long will that take to break-even? (And of course if you're running at a loss instead of a profit, the answer is never)

Personally, I'd be willing to work on a rev share basis with a restaurant on their website if they left control to me, and I had a degree of freedom in promoting it. Build a nice reservation piece, mobile alerts, etc. I'd have incentive to make it work, restaurant doesn't have to pay a lot up front, etc. They do it with opentable, why don't more restaurants work out web deals with web agencies for ongoing revenue share?

Re: Why are restaurant websites so awful? Because of restaurant culture.

#112

Post by user24 » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 12:45 PM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #110

user24 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is a PDF download really so bad? I much prefer a PDF menu. In fact I actively look for a menu download link when I eat out, which is often. It reassures me that I'm seeing exactly the same menu that I'll see when I sit down at the table. Too often the website has a little bit of html showing a 'typical menu', and I'm left simply not knowing if the food on the site is the food you're offering tonight. But when I see…

It'd be nice to have both, but the PDF is often too small to read on most screens, requires a lot of scrolling, etc. Similarly, just because you have a PDF menu doesn't mean they have the food on the menu. PDF menus that simply say "daily soup" or "ask for our specials" are pretty much designed for in-store use only, and basically useless on the web for decision making. When you're in a restaurant already seated, you…

yeah all good points. If there was a html menu that delivered the same confidence as a PDF menu the that would be much better, as the html version would be more usable on mobile devices etc etc (and just generally more webby).

Re: Why are restaurant websites so awful? Because of restaurant culture.

#113

Post by jcnnghm » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 1:08 PM UTC

jodrellblank wrote: post #98

jcnnghm wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have about 120 paying restaurant customers, and I couldn't agree more about the PDF menu. You could give them the slickest, easiest interface in the world, and they'll never use it. They don't have time. The PDF menu already looks good, they already put a ton of time into it to get it exactly right, and they don't want to duplicate that effort. Restaurant menus are meticulously laid out and a lot of effort is put i…

The good restaurants don't need a website, they have a two hour wait every time it isn't raining, and the restaurants that do need a good website have no money. If a website was essential, it would be worth borrowing to get one made. Is it not, or are they unable?

They usually can't get any more credit either. I've had everybody from small local restaurants to large national chains bounce checks. It's not uncommon for food and alcohol distributors to require that some accounts pay in advance with certified checks for this reason.

They have to borrow to open, and costs are always higher than expected. This causes them to cut things from their budget, like websites. They can't get more credit later because the business isn't putting up the numbers and they are already having difficulty paying all their bills. A banker will hand you an umbrella when it's sunny, and take it away as soon as it starts raining.

Re: Why are restaurant websites so awful? Because of restaurant culture.

#114

Post by jcnnghm » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 1:12 PM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #109

jcnnghm wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have about 120 paying restaurant customers, and I couldn't agree more about the PDF menu. You could give them the slickest, easiest interface in the world, and they'll never use it. They don't have time. The PDF menu already looks good, they already put a ton of time into it to get it exactly right, and they don't want to duplicate that effort. Restaurant menus are meticulously laid out and a lot of effort is put i…

The PDF menu already looks good, they already put a ton of time into it to get it exactly right, and they don't want to duplicate that effort. Well... why bother cleaning the outside of your restaurant - washing the windows, trimming the landscaping, cleaning around the dumpster, etc? They've already put so much effort in to making the inside of the restaurant look perfect, why duplicate that effort? A good website -…

They do that stuff because it doesn't really cost money, and because if they don't, they will always have empty tables. It's as simple as telling the existing staff to go do it.

The good website you are describing probably costs at least $5k, which is more than they have to spend. It also means they have to find someone that can do the work, tell them what they want, pay them, manage them, and evaluate the output. It's time consuming and expensive.

Re: Why are restaurant websites so awful? Because of restaurant culture.

#115

Post by ZoFreX » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 1:24 PM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #111

ZoFreX wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but a business barely ticking over can't afford to drop 10k on a website to draw in what, 10% more people? How long will that take to break-even? (And of course if you're running at a loss instead of a profit, the answer is never)

Personally, I'd be willing to work on a rev share basis with a restaurant on their website if they left control to me, and I had a degree of freedom in promoting it. Build a nice reservation piece, mobile alerts, etc. I'd have incentive to make it work, restaurant doesn't have to pay a lot up front, etc. They do it with opentable, why don't more restaurants work out web deals with web agencies for ongoing revenue sha…

Lots of restaurants have cash flow issues or aren't even making a profit even in the best of times. This would be a seriously risky move for a web agency in many cases and I would strongly advise against doing it unless you can afford to not get paid at all.

Re: Why are restaurant websites so awful? Because of restaurant culture.

#116

Post by bosie » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 1:45 PM UTC

jcnnghm wrote: post #70

ZoFreX wrote: post #2

As someone who has built a fair few restaurant sites, there are lots of reasons. If a web design agency builds a site that doesn't work on the iPhone or iPad, which are both now considered critical to restaurant marketing, they get to charge extra for creating an iOS specific version, or an app, or whatever. If you create one site that works great on everything, you make less money. Restaurants are also sometimes run…

I have about 120 paying restaurant customers, and I couldn't agree more about the PDF menu. You could give them the slickest, easiest interface in the world, and they'll never use it. They don't have time. The PDF menu already looks good, they already put a ton of time into it to get it exactly right, and they don't want to duplicate that effort. Restaurant menus are meticulously laid out and a lot of effort is put i…

If you don't mind me asking, are you running those 120 paying restaurant customers as a SAAS type of deal or is each an independent individual?

Re: Why are restaurant websites so awful? Because of restaurant culture.

#117

Post by phishphood » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 1:47 PM UTC

jcnnghm wrote: post #70

ZoFreX wrote: post #2

As someone who has built a fair few restaurant sites, there are lots of reasons. If a web design agency builds a site that doesn't work on the iPhone or iPad, which are both now considered critical to restaurant marketing, they get to charge extra for creating an iOS specific version, or an app, or whatever. If you create one site that works great on everything, you make less money. Restaurants are also sometimes run…

I have about 120 paying restaurant customers, and I couldn't agree more about the PDF menu. You could give them the slickest, easiest interface in the world, and they'll never use it. They don't have time. The PDF menu already looks good, they already put a ton of time into it to get it exactly right, and they don't want to duplicate that effort. Restaurant menus are meticulously laid out and a lot of effort is put i…

as someone who ran a restaurant a night club -- everything above is correct.

Re: Why are restaurant websites so awful? Because of restaurant culture.

#118

Post by Egregore » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 2:00 PM UTC

ZoFreX wrote: post #2

As someone who has built a fair few restaurant sites, there are lots of reasons. If a web design agency builds a site that doesn't work on the iPhone or iPad, which are both now considered critical to restaurant marketing, they get to charge extra for creating an iOS specific version, or an app, or whatever. If you create one site that works great on everything, you make less money. Restaurants are also sometimes run…

>Is a PDF download really so bad? It's horrible, it slows the browsing, on most mobile devices it doesn't work properly and sometimes it crashes them. Actually the best solution would be to have one place to fill the menu and it will generate both pdf for printed menu and web page from that data.

Re: Why are restaurant websites so awful? Because of restaurant culture.

#119

Post by krogsgard » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 2:21 PM UTC

callmeed wrote: post #18

My next startup is targeting this problem. I'm pitching it as "About.me for restaurants" ... a single-page, instant setup site that has location/hours/menu/contact info. I'm planning on posting it to HN for review in a few days. If anyone wants a peak now, drop me an email.

For restaurants that want more than a one page site, some customization opportunity, easy to generate html menus, etc. a new company called Theme Force is offering a hosted service that uses WordPress as a backend. I've done a demo of it and written about the company, and it's a solid solution: http://theme-force.com

The about.me style sounds like a good idea as well, for those that want a super low budget, no frills site. But a menu would be nice, even on something like that.

Re: Why are restaurant websites so awful? Because of restaurant culture.

#120

Post by JoeAltmaier » Wed, Aug 10, 2011, 2:39 PM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #109

jcnnghm wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have about 120 paying restaurant customers, and I couldn't agree more about the PDF menu. You could give them the slickest, easiest interface in the world, and they'll never use it. They don't have time. The PDF menu already looks good, they already put a ton of time into it to get it exactly right, and they don't want to duplicate that effort. Restaurant menus are meticulously laid out and a lot of effort is put i…

The PDF menu already looks good, they already put a ton of time into it to get it exactly right, and they don't want to duplicate that effort. Well... why bother cleaning the outside of your restaurant - washing the windows, trimming the landscaping, cleaning around the dumpster, etc? They've already put so much effort in to making the inside of the restaurant look perfect, why duplicate that effort? A good website -…

Um, many don't clean outside. I can't count the number of restaurants I've had to walk thru a minefield to reach from their parking lot. Old broken kitchen equipment parked out in the rain, broken cement, rusty signs, litter under every half-dead bush and tree.