Live data from Hacker News

How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com

381–390 of 452 posts

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience has been the exact opposite, if the developers understand what the business is trying to accomplish and what the incentives are then they are in a much better position to prioritize and build the right thing. Every single time I’ve seen 6 months of work on a useless or low value feature it has been the result of the dev team getting requests via some PM telephone game.

This is a tricky balance. Developers can also get overwhelmed with requests for estimates, automation tasks, etc etc, and get annoyed that people have so much contact with them. But it is a tricky balance; there's no obvious solution.

Sometimes it's helpful to have some division of labor between field/sales/support engineers who go to handhold customers, understand their particular problems, and prototype fixes, and "product engineers" who have less customer interaction. This is somewhat similar to the SRE/SWE split at places like Google.

If I were designing an organization with such a division of labor, those wouldn't be different job descriptions but different activities within a single job description; maybe I'd spend 22 days a month doing product-engineer stuff like adding features, and 3 days a month doing support-engineer stuff like visiting customer sites, diagnosing customer problems, and answering calls, while maybe hatchnyc would prefer to spend 22 days a month doing support-engineer stuff and 3 days a month doing product-engineer stuff. The reason is that, doing either activity, you gain an enormous amount of knowledge that's crucial to the other activity, but very difficult to even put into words, much less into a knowledge base.

Bill Gates found it useful to answer tech support calls as late as 01989: https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/289857

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#382

I'm old enough to remember the B.S/B.A. (Before Scrum/Before Agile) times. Agile has mostly been a disaster IMO.. I've worked at big public companies and 2-3 startups during it's run. It works to come up with a "MVP for 1.0 and then it starts dragging everything down because it encourages tech debt. My experience has always been the successful companies/teams were tongue in cheek telling everyone they were Agile when…

> But Agile to me always seemed to be about management being able to absolve itself of all responsibility for not being able to figure out what to build or how to build it and to always be able to blame the engineers.

This is Agile’s “Executive Armor Effect”, which turns developers into a sort of ablative armor that can take hits for executives.

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#383
post #97
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Dev, I loved SAFE. It changed everything about how our program operated to the point our delivery became extremely predictable and we still had every 9th and 10th week to tinker on new ideas or do refactoring and cleanup where we wanted. That program purred like nothing else I've ever been a part of. Senior leaders sat with devs, started talking to everyone about their priorities - people we had never seen befor…

Why is it that every criticism of agile/scrum/safe is met with "well you just weren't really doing it?"

Probably because a lot of people aren't really doing it, for reasons that are entirely predictable if you've ever worked at a big company. Consider the core of the Agile Manifesto http://agilemanifesto.org/:

> Individuals and interactions over processes and tools

> Working software over comprehensive documentation

> Customer collaboration over contract negotiation

> Responding to change over following a plan

How many big companies do you know that are organizationally capable of valuing individuals over processes and tools, or responding to change over following a plan? Almost all big companies have the opposite value system on those two points, imposed from the top down by the CEO (with the exception that they do value individuals if those individuals are senior management). Many big companies also have incentive structures that strongly countermand the other points, too. Comprehensive documentation is crucial ammunition for redirecting the blame for bad decisions, for example. (Cf. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28674388: "we not only need very thorough clarity on what feature development will yield the greatest returns, but also deniability that we had good reason for doing what we were doing if it turns south.")

A perfect example of using agile rhetoric without agile practices comes from today's post about what tech managers do—"standup" meetings where people don't stand up! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28677250 This results in the meetings lasting half an hour, doubling or tripling their cost per participant, even before you grapple with the increased number of participants that likely results!

I have my doubts about how effective Scrum could be even if practiced perfectly, but Jeff Sutherland, Mike Beedle, and Ken Schwaber are among the authors of the original Agile Manifesto (not just the signatories!), so at least they endorse those four core values and tried to make Scrum reflect them. So I think it's justifiable to say that if you value processes and tools over individuals and interactions, or following a plan over responding to change, you're not really doing Scrum, or any other agile process.

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#384
post #49

I really want to say this: SAFe is an awful process and a trend that will hopefully go the way of Unified Process/RUP. I won't go into it, but it's largely created and popularized by a vendor to sell their software. It is poison and exists to keep its practitioners employed. It attracts the highest-ego PMs like moths. I find it interesting that they author references Skype circa 2012. It sounds like classic "uppercas…

> The idea an "agile enterprise" is intrinsically absurd. Teams are agile not companies I’m really not sure what you are basing this on. Agile, as I’m familiar with it is framed in terms of lean management which is a well established approach to running business, exemplified by Toyota. Now you can debate the suitabilities of this and the effectiveness til the cows come home, just as you can with agile and scrum etc b…

I don't think it's fair to say that http://agilemanifesto.org/ is "framed in terms of lean management", or indeed management at all. While there's nothing making it impossible to organize a company along those lines, you may be interested in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28677886 where I explain why the Agile Manifesto values are deeply opposed to many established company value systems.

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#385
post #89

I really want to say this: SAFe is an awful process and a trend that will hopefully go the way of Unified Process/RUP. I won't go into it, but it's largely created and popularized by a vendor to sell their software. It is poison and exists to keep its practitioners employed. It attracts the highest-ego PMs like moths. I find it interesting that they author references Skype circa 2012. It sounds like classic "uppercas…

As a Dev, I loved SAFE. It changed everything about how our program operated to the point our delivery became extremely predictable and we still had every 9th and 10th week to tinker on new ideas or do refactoring and cleanup where we wanted. That program purred like nothing else I've ever been a part of. Senior leaders sat with devs, started talking to everyone about their priorities - people we had never seen befor…

You'd have to trust me, but I know SAFe well in theory and practice. I still don't like it, but I am glad you've had a good experience with it. It may be that it's the right fit for some companies. It is definitely better than organizational dysfunction. It sounds like your environment was dysfunctional and bringing SAFe in fixed that, at least.

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#386

The thing about Scrum is the observations and principles make sense, but then to sell it as a course they've turned it into very specific prescriptions. I went on a scrum course and the takeaway was basically that feedback is a big deal, and you should try to get some repeatedly and quickly. It's also common sense that you should have tasks written down somewhere, and that some of them are more important than others.…

I don't think that's the case at all, very little in Scrum makes sense.

Scrum is anti agile, it's basically processes over people.

Honestly I find it hilarious how agile people try to bring scrum into companies just so they can get a tiny bit of extra power.

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same experience at AWS. A team of siloed engineers working on projects for the same product, with very little collaboration. Projects were tracked in spreadsheets. Time estimates were created out of thin air to meet the desired (impossible) deadline.

This kind of mass delusion has been pretty much de rigueur my entire career (decades): Software is typically quite hard and mostly unknown at the beginning of a project. Most of the hard work is figuring out the things that weren't known. It's a learning/discovery experience. It's essentially impossible to predict how long that activity will take. The further out in time you consider, the less likely you'll have much…

Have you spent the decades of your career working at companies that blew their competition out of the water with better software, like Google, Apple, WhatsApp, and Facebook, or at companies whose software was unremarkable or inferior? If it's been some of both, did you note a difference in the degree to which stakeholders grappled with the kind of uncertainty you're talking about?

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#388
post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for Shopify, but in general you want teams that don't need anyone to tell them what to deliver and when because they can be trusted to figure that out for themselves and make a good call. That can't be done without having customer representation on the team (which you should anyway), and having engineers capable of taking a customer viewpoint. That is what "self-organising" should mean, but few organisa…

There's a vast difference between being a cost center and being willing to set money on fire. Our teams have a lot of autonomy or at least influence in product strategy but it's because we empower our product managers, designers and researchers to help business understand how to achieve their goals. A lot of these projects are greenfield where the team comes in pretty blank on what needs doing. Developers are part of…

> Developers are part of the process too but they don't generate much insight into what customers want. Only how to execute.

How could you fix that? Would it be sufficient to give the developers more contact with the customers, or would you need to hire different developers, for example domain experts who also knew how to program?

I ask because, when you're writing software, you're constantly making tradeoffs between different aspects of quality: throughput vs. latency, flexibility vs. performance, learnability vs. routine usability, information density vs. skimmability, recoverability from errors vs. security, predictability vs. everything else. The more you know what your customers want, the better you can make those tradeoffs.

Ultimately "how to execute" is the automatable part of the job.

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#389

Reading this, I'm struck by a thought: Are we the bad guys? According to the article, what the big tech companies have in common is engineer-led products. It's not the besuited MBA's making product decisions, it's us, the engineers. And the big tech companies are also united in having evil products. With the possible exception of Shopify and Datadog, every company on that list of "big tech" is doing things that activ…

Maybe evil is just more profitable than good because it externalizes its costs.

Creating a sports car, or paying someone else to do so, is a lot more expensive than just stealing one, if you can get away with it. Robbing a bank is cheaper than building a bank. If you can do this kind of thing at scale, well, to the extent that you only have to spend money on capturing value instead of both creating it and capturing it, you'll be vastly more profitable than the "suckers" you're capturing it from.

Same thing is true of Fecebutt: creating the mountains of data their users go to Fecebutt for (restaurant recommendations, family photos, thoughtful essays, sexy bikini shots, social-network data) took perhaps a trillion person-hours, but Fecebutt gained control over it at a cost of under a trillion dollars. Ballparking, they had to spend less than 5% of the cost of those assets to acquire control over them. Now it can leverage them to organize genocides, rig elections, and extort photos of government IDs and use them to out promiscuous women and closeted gay people—not to mention selling you tens of billions of dollars a year of stuff you don't need through advertising.

It's hard for positive-social-value companies like Shopify and Datadog to compete on salaries with that 20:1 value multiplier. The fact that they manage it at all is not only a testament to the enormous value they're producing but also the enormous destruction of value implicit in Facebook's business model.

Re: How big tech runs tech projects and the curious absence of Scrum

#390
Kudos to the author for gathering some data and sharing their conclusions. I encourage you all to take a look at the survey responses though. I know Scrum and Agile bashing is fun and all, but we're drawing some pretty big conclusions from just over 100 responses. And while the focus of this seems to be pitting "big tech" against others.. with the assumption that we're talking about FAANG.. there are 16 responses from public tech companies (if I'm understanding this spreadsheet correctly).

Data from article here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Cz7NqDblls_TBJVI4xwD...

Post reply on HN