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Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#91

Post by joeberon »

whynaut wrote: post #80
rg111 wrote: post #59

I have always doubted full Mindfulness. I meditate irregularly. Some of the best ideas in my life came to me when I was not thinking about it- while walking, cooking, or in shower. If I had fully focused on those tasks only, those ideas might have had eluded me. OTOH, always thinking about something is unhealthy. I find a comfortable middle ground in times when it is required. If Archimedes only focused on the warmth…

mindfulness is almost an opposite of thinking.

No. Mindfulness is "thinking when thinking, walking when walking, shitting when shitting".

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#92

Post by joeberon »

shrimpx wrote: post #46
BoHerfVJrEsq wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I think it's pretty easy to see differences between, say, Christianity and Buddhism. Do you know of any Christians who claim to have had some breakthrough in prayer after which they experienced no suffering? I don't. But it's normal for Buddhist meditators to report things like that, or to report that happiness flows to them automatically. Ecstatic experiences are sometimes reported in Christianity, but I and m…

“Enlightened” people have existed in all walks of life, not just Buddhism. In fact one could see Buddhism as annoyingly codifying into a religion that which is natural and obvious. Just like Christianity.

According to the Buddha, his path is the only one to nirvana.

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#93

Post by YokoZar »

dmje wrote: post #66
Aerroon wrote: post #55

A lot of these posts here on HN regarding meditation and mindfulness sound like what you would hear from an 'intergalactic encyclopedia salesman'. Just a different faith. It's dressed up in the mystery of 'teachings' and 'feelings' and other vague notions. It feels like someone has set up an industry that's raking in a lot of money and all the converts perpetuate it. Perhaps they buy into it or maybe they try to just…

To be fair, there's a multi-layered thing going on here. Yes, there is a mindfulness "industry" nowadays, and it's terribly fashionable right now, and with fashion comes The Horde, and with that comes The Charlatans (not the band) - and in the modern world this is all now followed by The Influencers and adverts and apps and a whole plastic money-fuelled nothingness that accompanies the modern world. But. Under the ho…

> The article itself isn't terribly interesting, IMO. Yes, there are moments like Flow when doing something familiar (piano playing, coding) which are apparently "mindless" but in fact are themselves deeply mindful, in that they feel like they connect action almost directly to the subconscious. Or this at least is how it feels when I play piano - I have literally no idea how my fingers do what they do, and if I think about it too hard, things fall apart.

If you're willing to define both reflective thinking and task-driven nonthinking as mindfulness, then what exactly isn't?

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#94

Post by joeberon »

drdeca wrote: post #57
BoHerfVJrEsq wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The basic problem of life is that by default, happiness depends on circumstances that you don't control. Meditation helps cultivate a kind of happiness that does not depend on getting what you like or avoiding what you dislike. It also helps people behave like saints, i.e., kind, compassionate, joyful about the successes of others, equanimous, generous, fearless, etc.

Why should I want to be happy? A major purpose of happiness is a difficult-to-fake signal to others of an outcome being good for me (rather, of it seeming to me to be good/desirable). Happiness is what happens when I get what I want. Making happiness into the thing I want is almost completely backwards.

The Buddha taught of those who are deluded and thus content with samsara as it is, which is the category you fall into. It could be because you have a good rebirth, and thus have not experienced enough significant suffering to feel the need to find refuge from it. Whatever it is, no one can convince you that samsara should be escaped. In Buddhist doctrine, probably the best approach for you would to be to cultivate good karma for good future rebirths and wait until samvega perhaps develops.

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#95

Post by joeberon »

cko wrote: post #33

I am now of the view that mindfulness in the Theravada Buddhist tradition is accompanied by an overall attitude of renunciation (nekkhamma in Pali). Besides, the Pali word for mindfulness, sati, is one of the Seven Factors of Awakening ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Factors_of_Awakening ). So as part of a whole practice, besides just bare attention and a mind that doesn't move much, there's factors like joy,…

I honestly think it's quite dangerous in a secular context. Mindfulness can be, for some, like literally taking psychedelics, but except you are sober and there is no guarantee that you will ever come down. I know many people who have to "fake" a normal, healthy mental life because they are genuinely in a state of total, constant perceptual chaos due to badly integrated mindfulness experiences. Like, this is genuinely totally life-destroying stuff.

It is dangerous outside of the Buddhist context, because Buddhism offers a world view that can synthesise with your experiences, along with many qualities that should be developed at the same time as mindfulness, such as loving-kindness and compassion, which help to create stability. Otherwise, just focussing extremely on mindfulness and insight, you can get an extremely destabilised individual.

Because of this, recommending intense (>30 mins) daily mindfulness meditation to people suffering from mental health issues is almost criminal imo.

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#96

Post by visarga »

twelvechairs wrote: post #35
lugged wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're arguing semantics. These two things are not mutually exclusive either. You can and should practice both.

The article is worse than parent commenter in sematics. It equates mindfulness with golfers 'paying attention to their swing' which is just plain wrong. Mindfulness is not focussing on an outcome, like hitting a golf ball exactly in the right way, but about understanding the breadth of experiences in the present - senses and thoughts.

It's like going to a discount store, browsing the isles and finding good deals here and there (fun random shopping), vs going to the mall to get that blue shirt with white lines, and never finding it in the right size in any store (an often frustrating experience).

The difference is in how you filter your experiences - wide filter with no specific purpose is mindful state, narrow filter with exact purpose is regular state.

A simple test: in mindful states you are very aware of the body and in regular states you forget about it.

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#97

Post by smorgusofborg »

Brakenshire wrote: post #87
texasbigdata wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Falls flat? You can MRI and observe neuroplasticity type changes based on level of meditation experience. Also, I believe it was Berkley affiliated, a monthly review of papers published on mindfulness and it's impacts often had 80+ meaningful entries on an average month: some of the use cases around therapy, around endangered populations (ptsd), disorders (agoraphobia, etc). Your general point about society might not…

Can you really see neuroplasticity in an MRI?

One measures oxygen levels by MRI while doing a task before and after the intervention to determine changes to what regions get enlisted for the task.

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#99

Post by taneq »

YokoZar wrote: post #93
dmje wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, there's a multi-layered thing going on here. Yes, there is a mindfulness "industry" nowadays, and it's terribly fashionable right now, and with fashion comes The Horde, and with that comes The Charlatans (not the band) - and in the modern world this is all now followed by The Influencers and adverts and apps and a whole plastic money-fuelled nothingness that accompanies the modern world. But. Under the ho…

> The article itself isn't terribly interesting, IMO. Yes, there are moments like Flow when doing something familiar (piano playing, coding) which are apparently "mindless" but in fact are themselves deeply mindful, in that they feel like they connect action almost directly to the subconscious. Or this at least is how it feels when I play piano - I have literally no idea how my fingers do what they do, and if I think…

Anything that didn't involve someone getting paid to teach a course.

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#100

Post by jmfldn »

beckman466 wrote: post #71
dmje wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, there's a multi-layered thing going on here. Yes, there is a mindfulness "industry" nowadays, and it's terribly fashionable right now, and with fashion comes The Horde, and with that comes The Charlatans (not the band) - and in the modern world this is all now followed by The Influencers and adverts and apps and a whole plastic money-fuelled nothingness that accompanies the modern world. But. Under the ho…

> Yes, there is a mindfulness "industry" > But. > I quite like "vague notions" like "feelings", myself :-) it's funny how what you write is exactly "what you would hear from an 'intergalactic encyclopedia salesman'", to quote OP. thanks for proving OP's point. i think the reason mindfulness falls flat is because it ignores the material reality of the working class in our profit-seeking economic system. it makes like…

Speaking as a meditation practitioner, I don't think you deserve downvotes but I don't think it's zero sum either. Mindfulness should not be used to salve problems whose root cause is exploitation. I'm a proponent of being socially engaged and this actually comes from my own Buddhist inclinations. It would be somewhat inimical to the point of Buddhist practice to save oneself and ignore other's suffering, and understanding that suffering may involve looking at systems, not just the individual's response to things. Held in this sprit of interrelationship, things like meditation can help us become better activists. You will also be less likely to burn out as you strive for things and try and affect change from a healthier standpoint.
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