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Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#71

Post by beckman466 »

dmje wrote: post #66
Aerroon wrote: post #55

A lot of these posts here on HN regarding meditation and mindfulness sound like what you would hear from an 'intergalactic encyclopedia salesman'. Just a different faith. It's dressed up in the mystery of 'teachings' and 'feelings' and other vague notions. It feels like someone has set up an industry that's raking in a lot of money and all the converts perpetuate it. Perhaps they buy into it or maybe they try to just…

To be fair, there's a multi-layered thing going on here. Yes, there is a mindfulness "industry" nowadays, and it's terribly fashionable right now, and with fashion comes The Horde, and with that comes The Charlatans (not the band) - and in the modern world this is all now followed by The Influencers and adverts and apps and a whole plastic money-fuelled nothingness that accompanies the modern world. But. Under the ho…

> Yes, there is a mindfulness "industry"

> But.

> I quite like "vague notions" like "feelings", myself :-)

it's funny how what you write is exactly "what you would hear from an 'intergalactic encyclopedia salesman'", to quote OP. thanks for proving OP's point.

i think the reason mindfulness falls flat is because it ignores the material reality of the working class in our profit-seeking economic system. it makes like miserable for a large group of people.

the problem is that you can't meditate your way out of poverty of precarity by using "a centuries-old tradition of self-investigation and awareness".

mindfulness is 'for' the propertied classes who usually collect all types of rent [1] and who aren't living paycheck to paycheck.

try telling an exhausted Amazon warehouse worker to 'try' mindfulness. often it's just a bunch of gaslighting hoo-ha

[1] https://www.resilience.org/stories/2017-08-03/book-day-corru...

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#72

Post by BoHerfVJrEsq »

drdeca wrote: post #68
BoHerfVJrEsq wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not advocating wanting to be happy, I'm advocating cultivating happiness that does not depend on circumstances. There's a parable called "who knows what's good or bad?" that addresses why it doesn't make sense to assign "good" or "bad" to the events that happen to us. > Happiness is what happens when I get what I want. Well, that's how it seems at first. But even though you were overjoyed at the presents you got…

But what reason is there to cultivate this happiness-independent-of-circumstances if not in order to be happy? But if I do not wish to be happy, then I have no reason to cultivate this kind of happiness. It is like you are trying to tell me a way that I can get free oil for my car instead of having to buy it from the gas station, when I don’t have a car, but a bicycle (or maybe a skateboard?). I have no use for this…

If you're completely content with how things are already, you're one of the rare individuals who has no need for meditation.

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#73

Post by texasbigdata »

beckman466 wrote: post #71
dmje wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, there's a multi-layered thing going on here. Yes, there is a mindfulness "industry" nowadays, and it's terribly fashionable right now, and with fashion comes The Horde, and with that comes The Charlatans (not the band) - and in the modern world this is all now followed by The Influencers and adverts and apps and a whole plastic money-fuelled nothingness that accompanies the modern world. But. Under the ho…

> Yes, there is a mindfulness "industry" > But. > I quite like "vague notions" like "feelings", myself :-) it's funny how what you write is exactly "what you would hear from an 'intergalactic encyclopedia salesman'", to quote OP. thanks for proving OP's point. i think the reason mindfulness falls flat is because it ignores the material reality of the working class in our profit-seeking economic system. it makes like…

Falls flat? You can MRI and observe neuroplasticity type changes based on level of meditation experience. Also, I believe it was Berkley affiliated, a monthly review of papers published on mindfulness and it's impacts often had 80+ meaningful entries on an average month: some of the use cases around therapy, around endangered populations (ptsd), disorders (agoraphobia, etc).

Your general point about society might not be wrong, but the main claim that meditation does nothing is woefully incorrect.

The argument in this thread seems to "late night TV sold me a shake weight, it's a bullshit, those scam artists, who needs strenght training anyways?". There's other ways.

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#74

Post by texasbigdata »

mlang23 wrote: post #69
Aerroon wrote: post #55

A lot of these posts here on HN regarding meditation and mindfulness sound like what you would hear from an 'intergalactic encyclopedia salesman'. Just a different faith. It's dressed up in the mystery of 'teachings' and 'feelings' and other vague notions. It feels like someone has set up an industry that's raking in a lot of money and all the converts perpetuate it. Perhaps they buy into it or maybe they try to just…

I fully agree. Although there are exceptions, much of the self-help industry has a similar spooky feel to me. Also, I find it hilarious that people are using apps to meditate or be "mindful". I cant quite explain it with words, but... If the first step of your journey is already in the wrong direction, forget about the rest...

I've done the entire stack: by myself, in class (Buddhist affiliated, weekly), app, and 10 day silent meditation retreat.

Apps are fine. It's an entry point and some people might feel uncomfortable driving to a strange place to sit with strangers doing a strange activity.

You know pretty quickly if works or not. Eventually the apps (maybe this has changed) are relatively limited as the cater to the 20 minutes crowd, and you might want to go further.

In terms of depth, Sam Harris has an app where he comingles (IMHO) fairly advanced philosophical concepts. Maybe it's snake oil to you, but feels real and material to me.

That being said, like getting enough sun or eating well or working out...it's optional and there's multiple ways to get there. No need to buy any encyclopedias if you know you're never going to open then :)

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#75

Post by mojuba »

Aerroon wrote: post #55

A lot of these posts here on HN regarding meditation and mindfulness sound like what you would hear from an 'intergalactic encyclopedia salesman'. Just a different faith. It's dressed up in the mystery of 'teachings' and 'feelings' and other vague notions. It feels like someone has set up an industry that's raking in a lot of money and all the converts perpetuate it. Perhaps they buy into it or maybe they try to just…

I use the "culture test" for this kind of things: if something is talked about a lot in one part of the world but not the other, it means there's an underlying industry that has their money in the media and the so called influencers. As for mindfulness, for example, you can almost unmistakably tell an American from a European online, by how someone talks about meditation or ignores the topic. Interestingly also, podcasts seem to be a lot more popular among the Americans compared to Europeans. In this age when we seem to live in the same shared information space, I can only explain these discrepancies by some serious marketing money but local to some country or region.

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#76

Post by Mikejames »

i get the articles point, but it doesn’t touch onto some of the main reasons people follow mindfulness. sure everyone knows if you think too much about a task you mess up. imagine a pro golfer focusing on every muscle tensing in the correct way to hit a ball. it’s not possible to play at that level with a level of consciousness, it’s about muscle memory.

but a pro golfer that meditates to get beyond bad press and things that consume their minds, that’s where mindfulness will make them a better golfer.

mindfulness is on a different level to just being conscious of a task, it allows you to prevent going down pathways of thought that are not useful, and taking you away from the moment. it allows you to experience your emotions and thoughts and to most importantly not judge them, allowing you to see who you really are. Experience different perspectives, gain a different view on life. enabling you to be your true self and to those around you

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#77

Post by whynaut »

beckman466 wrote: post #71
dmje wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, there's a multi-layered thing going on here. Yes, there is a mindfulness "industry" nowadays, and it's terribly fashionable right now, and with fashion comes The Horde, and with that comes The Charlatans (not the band) - and in the modern world this is all now followed by The Influencers and adverts and apps and a whole plastic money-fuelled nothingness that accompanies the modern world. But. Under the ho…

> Yes, there is a mindfulness "industry" > But. > I quite like "vague notions" like "feelings", myself :-) it's funny how what you write is exactly "what you would hear from an 'intergalactic encyclopedia salesman'", to quote OP. thanks for proving OP's point. i think the reason mindfulness falls flat is because it ignores the material reality of the working class in our profit-seeking economic system. it makes like…

This is silly. I discovered mindfulness early in life and it definitely does help one contend with the (mental) pains of poverty. Please at least minimally research the topic before descending to call it “gaslighting hoo-ha”.

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#78

Post by Lammy »

Aerroon wrote: post #55

A lot of these posts here on HN regarding meditation and mindfulness sound like what you would hear from an 'intergalactic encyclopedia salesman'. Just a different faith. It's dressed up in the mystery of 'teachings' and 'feelings' and other vague notions. It feels like someone has set up an industry that's raking in a lot of money and all the converts perpetuate it. Perhaps they buy into it or maybe they try to just…

Personally when I see multiple belief systems arrive at the same general (if vague) conclusions I take it as a sign that they’re probably all on to something.

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#79

Post by whynaut »

atoav wrote: post #47

As a musician what happens when you don't think and just do is often superior than when you are mindful of every tiny detail of your hands movement (it can even happen that you are downright unable to play if you are too aware of what you are doing). This kind of focus is important when practising, but on stage it should just be there with the sound, not sure whether this would be called mindful or the opposite. Mind…

flow state and mindfulness aren’t really opposed. In fact, having a good grasp of mindfulness allows you to shut down distractions to your own flow as they appear in your mind. Sounds like they got it wrong.

Re: Sometimes mindlessness is better than mindfulness

#80

Post by whynaut »

rg111 wrote: post #59

I have always doubted full Mindfulness. I meditate irregularly. Some of the best ideas in my life came to me when I was not thinking about it- while walking, cooking, or in shower. If I had fully focused on those tasks only, those ideas might have had eluded me. OTOH, always thinking about something is unhealthy. I find a comfortable middle ground in times when it is required. If Archimedes only focused on the warmth…

mindfulness is almost an opposite of thinking.
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