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The Science of the Benefits of Religion

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Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#41

There seems to be little doubt that religion, faith, spirituality or rite can have benefits. The question is how to get the good side of all these (community, meaning, satisfaction and fulfilment) without the nasty side (exclusion and intolerance, resistance to or denial of reality, imposition of impossible standards, the denial of one's own preferences and wants). Religion has been a major source of soothing and a m…

I think it’s time to recognize that many of the things you list as bad have a purpose as well and benefits. Remember, organized religion developed in harsh societies were people were always struggling to survive. If you think about a village in Bangladesh, where there is no government with unlimited resources to come save you, imposition of strict rules, suppression of individual preferences, etc., makes sense.

What’s soured me on secular humanism is how the liberal revolution hasn’t made a big chunk of the population better off: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-bir.... I don’t think that’s just economic, I think it’s social as well.

> According to the Harvard political scientist Robert Putnam, 60 years ago just 20 percent of children born to parents with a high-school education or less lived in a single-parent household; now that figure is nearly 70 percent. Among college-educated households, by contrast, the single-parent rate remains less than 10 percent. Since the 1970s, the divorce rate has declined significantly among college-educated couples, while it has risen dramatically among couples with only a high-school education—even as marriage itself has become less common.

If you think about the marshmallow test of impulse control, a lot of us are those kids at the far right of the bell curve who could wait forever for future rewards. But what about everyone else? What if a lot of people need the threat of exclusion or intolerance to, for example, to not walk away from their parental obligations.

My in laws live in rural Oregon, and what’s striking to me is how dysfunctional their communities are. People might putatively religious, but liberalism has won insofar as organized religion has no power to police public morals. And what’s been the result? Not a social libertarian utopia, but dysfunction. My mother in law has teenagers just flocking to her house because it’s an island of stability in a world of mom’s boyfriends coming and going, divorces over trifles, etc.

My dad in the other hand comes from a village in Bangladesh, and they don’t have a fraction of the material comfort of folks in rural America. But what they have is Islam, and tight regulation of social behaviors, intact families, etc. They have social structures that help them make the most of what little they have, which is why I think they thrive when they immigrate to America.

Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#42

I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses - Please read on before you just dismiss what I have experienced. Going door to door I have meet plenty of people who say "I don't believe in God, we got here thru evolution!". So I ask the simple question which theory of evolution do they think is probably has the right idea. Too often I hear, "Survival of the strongest." or "What? There is more than one theory about how evolution wor…

You see this with COVID too. Many people are only accidentally on the right side with respect to “the science.”

Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#43

I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses - Please read on before you just dismiss what I have experienced. Going door to door I have meet plenty of people who say "I don't believe in God, we got here thru evolution!". So I ask the simple question which theory of evolution do they think is probably has the right idea. Too often I hear, "Survival of the strongest." or "What? There is more than one theory about how evolution wor…

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Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#44

I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses - Please read on before you just dismiss what I have experienced. Going door to door I have meet plenty of people who say "I don't believe in God, we got here thru evolution!". So I ask the simple question which theory of evolution do they think is probably has the right idea. Too often I hear, "Survival of the strongest." or "What? There is more than one theory about how evolution wor…

The main difference is that for evolution most people can point to (or try to point to) a legitimate source of authority for why they believe evolution is true. Whereas for religion, there is nothing to point to other than blind faith.

So blindly believing in something is fine unless you're right in the end?

Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#45

I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses - Please read on before you just dismiss what I have experienced. Going door to door I have meet plenty of people who say "I don't believe in God, we got here thru evolution!". So I ask the simple question which theory of evolution do they think is probably has the right idea. Too often I hear, "Survival of the strongest." or "What? There is more than one theory about how evolution wor…

People believe in quantum mechanics not because they personally understand it, but because they believe/trust in the experts. How do the experts demonstrate their authority? ...by making electronics that do magic.

The difference between a belief of religious person and say a scientist is that the former asks you to trust them on blind faith while the latter asks you to trust them by proving they have more control over something than you do.

Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issues you describe apply to any grouping of people. Tribes have their own truths. Look at how popular those "we believe science is real" signs are. You could remove religion and we'd still have the same issues. I don't think it's possible to solve them. The best solution is going to be a world where a long, happy life is guaranteed by forces outside man's control. This will likely alleviate a lot of the tribal i…

The difference between religion and other groups is that it provides an impenetrable shield to those who wield it, and virtually anything can be deflected a-la > God's ways are mysterious fashion. Any differing positions appear as attacks against the person's religion, which - when it carries sufficient argumentative power - can shake the foundations of the person's world model. This, in turn, prevents them from acce…

> The difference between religion and other groups is that it provides an impenetrable shield to those who wield it, and virtually anything can be deflected

Yeah, other groups have this as well. I once had the temerity to observe that Bush did a lot to quell anti-Islamic sentiment by appealing to other people of faith in post-9/11 speeches. I recounted my own experience as a brown guy with a Muslim name living in the south in 2002-2003.

An acquaintance, a young white atheist lady, told me that I needed to “educate myself” about the “damage” that “Islamaphobia does to brown people in America.”

I didn’t even engage further because it was clear I was dealing with someone’s quasi-religious belief.

Everyone has belief systems and everyone’s belief systems necessarily include things taken as axiomatic.

Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#47

This excerpt is from a widely prayed Orthodox Christian akathist hymn. [0] Akathist means not sitting as it is usually prayed standing up. It was composed during the persecution in communist Russia by Metropolitan Tryphon [1] "The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creativ…

I love this Akathist, and it should be noted that Metropolitan Tryphon wrote it in a literal gulag. The ability to see and be thankful for the beauty of our world, even under those conditions, is a testament to the power of religion, and some would say God.

Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#48
But if we remove the theology—views about the nature of God, the creation of the universe, and the like—from the day-to-day practice of religious faith, the animosity in the debate evaporates.

Of course, then it's no longer a religion. It's a social organization.

It seems to be quite possible to overdose on religion. Some religions do that as policy, as a form of brainwashing. The religions with mandatory prayer several times a day work like that. It's really hard to break people free of that brainwashing if they grew up with it. It's not the theology, it's the repetition. Both haredi Judaism and Islam use that approach to induce some degree of fanaticism. The Catholic Church, in previous centuries, was into that sort of thing, but has lightened up a bit.

Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#49

There seems to be little doubt that religion, faith, spirituality or rite can have benefits. The question is how to get the good side of all these (community, meaning, satisfaction and fulfilment) without the nasty side (exclusion and intolerance, resistance to or denial of reality, imposition of impossible standards, the denial of one's own preferences and wants). Religion has been a major source of soothing and a m…

I don’t think spirituality has anything to do with it. It’s about community first and foremost. We are social creatures after all.

That is, unless we are going to conflate spirituality with anything even remotely related to existential ruminations.

In the crowds I run in people are primarily satisfied by a good think.

Re: The Science of the Benefits of Religion

#50

I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses - Please read on before you just dismiss what I have experienced. Going door to door I have meet plenty of people who say "I don't believe in God, we got here thru evolution!". So I ask the simple question which theory of evolution do they think is probably has the right idea. Too often I hear, "Survival of the strongest." or "What? There is more than one theory about how evolution wor…

The main difference is that for evolution most people can point to (or try to point to) a legitimate source of authority for why they believe evolution is true. Whereas for religion, there is nothing to point to other than blind faith.

Who decides legitimacy and why is a university a more legitimate source of knowledge than a church?
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