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Apple is working on iPhone features to help detect depression, cognitive decline

wsj.com

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Re: Apple is working on iPhone features to help detect depression, cognitive decline

#91

Post by odyssey7 »

yyyk wrote: post #85
odyssey7 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same could be said about electronic health record software generally. Electronic healthcare data as a phenomenon isn't going anywhere; it will only get bigger, and individuals stand to benefit tremendously from this fact as it will make early diagnoses and getting the right care at the right time more likely. Rather than panic when we find out that another company will be handling healthcare data, we need to set…

The comparison between software that lets doctors file data you give them and software that may do proactive automatic monitoring of users is absurd.

The specific concern raised in the parent comment is about healthcare data leaks.

In my view, every company handling healthcare data should be responsible for keeping that data safe and having proper consent, regardless of whether the software is paid for by doctors or by iPhone users.

I don't think this viewpoint is absurd.

Re: Apple is working on iPhone features to help detect depression, cognitive decline

#92

Post by kergonath »

concinds wrote: post #86

A little dismayed that the sci-fi "tech futurism" attitude of previous decades is now a beaten, lifeless corpse. Opt-in health features that give you more control over your health? World-ending! But 20 years ago, we were imagining a little wristband-type machine that would be able to non-invasively and routinely analyse blood samples, detecting cancer a decade early, increasing human lifespans, etc. This pattern is a…

There's a kind of collective paranoid delusion here (I mean, on the Internet in general). When you start from the idea that they are all about to get you, it's easy to interpret anything as a confirmation of your suspicions. It is not easy to be rational with this sort of siege mentality, which is reinforced by the fact that non-technophiles do not seem to get it or take it seriously.

We've gone from a (unwarranted) radical techno-optimism to (just as unwarranted) general hostility. A consequence of that is the pervasiveness of this cynical, nihilistic mood, which quickly corrupts most discussions every time some subjects pop up. To some extent, these companies brought this onto themselves with some objectively despicable behaviours, but we are not doing ourselves any favours.

Re: Apple is working on iPhone features to help detect depression, cognitive decline

#93

Post by sofixa »

lostlogin wrote: post #75
ArchStanton wrote: post #54

I can imagine the advertising value of watching for depression and cognitive decline. In the latter case, you could probably sell a dozen extended warranties for the same item. EZ prediction of the day. Combine depression, cognitive decline, anger, etc. values against a database of gun owners (picked up through registration, social media posts, ATF background checks, etc.). Send police to house when some crossover po…

We need a name for the equivalent of Godwin’s Law for the hypothetical situation which gets stretched then ends with ‘they want to take my guns’.

Absolutely agree. lostlogin's law?

Re: Apple is working on iPhone features to help detect depression, cognitive decline

#94

Post by nbzso »

Everyday passing by I feel better and better that removed myself from Apple ecosystem. As I felt they will be more invasive than Google and Faceebook combined. Google has your search data, Faceebook has what you share, Apple has your entire life in a box. And this is only the start. Minority Report seems like very optimistic rendition of the future.

Where are my soma pills, Apple? What you mean that "the bottle is not included" in a purchase? It is subscription service? For my health and well being? OK.

And dear friends, if you are blind where all this "advancements" and "progress" are going, nobody can help you.

I feel that conspiracy theorists will have hard times ahead. They cannot be creative and competitive as marketing and pr cohorts of richest companies of the world.:)

Re: Apple is working on iPhone features to help detect depression, cognitive decline

#96

Post by yyyk »

odyssey7 wrote: post #91
yyyk wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comparison between software that lets doctors file data you give them and software that may do proactive automatic monitoring of users is absurd.

The specific concern raised in the parent comment is about healthcare data leaks. In my view, every company handling healthcare data should be responsible for keeping that data safe and having proper consent, regardless of whether the software is paid for by doctors or by iPhone users. I don't think this viewpoint is absurd.

>The specific concern raised in the parent comment is about healthcare data leaks.

Hacking electronic health record software requires hacking into data centres/cloud providers. Hacking this proposal merely requires hacking an iPhone.

Electronic health record software only stores data you wish to allow your health provider to discover. Apple and co. are (according to the article) thinking about automatic collection.

This proposal is dramatically more expansive than typical health records.

Re: Apple is working on iPhone features to help detect depression, cognitive decline

#97

Post by kergonath »

amelius wrote: post #90
kergonath wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has there been any indication that health data and the associated sensitive information are leaving the device without the user's consent? They would run afoul of quite a lot of laws and regulations in all western jurisdictions the moment they do that. AFAIK, except when you enrol in a study, none of that depends on network access.

When there is an indication, then it's already too late. The trust you have in the system is not the trust I have.

Well yeah, but without observable facts, this is just wild guesses or paranoia. Considering the regular news about weaknesses in anything from Safari to iMessages, I have a really hard time taking these claims seriously. The storage and processing of health data is documented, and they do not leave the device or the Secure Enclave (unless you accept it, e.g. during a study).

Re: Apple is working on iPhone features to help detect depression, cognitive decline

#98

Post by CharlesW »

bserge wrote: post #77
ljm wrote: post #64

I suffer from bi-polar disorder and it's been difficult to get a referral to a psychiatrist who can confirm the diagnosis. The depressive phases are easier to spot and I get medication for that when it's too bad. The thing is, there are already countless mechanisms that can track the obvious symptoms of a manic phase, but none of them have an incentive to tell you that you're suddenly spending too much. Frivolous pur…

That's the neat thing, the data won't help you get better care.

> That's the neat thing, the data won't help you get better care.

Are you speaking from experience? In mine, good doctors will absolutely leverage relevant self-captured sensor data to aid in diagnoses and provide better care.

Re: Apple is working on iPhone features to help detect depression, cognitive decline

#99

Post by knaik94 »

kergonath wrote: post #87
knaik94 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If the research finds that any of that data correlates with relevant mental-health conditions, the hope is to turn those signals into an app or feature that could warn people they might be at risk and prompt them to seek care I am worried about the part of article that mentions that they want to automate the analysis of the data to some degree and move it out a strictly clinical research setting. I have also done so…

These things don't do diagnostics. They just give the user a heads up and suggest they see a specialist. The sky was already falling when they did that for atrial fibrillation, and there were lots of people claiming that it would submerge hospitals and doctors under a flow of false positive. The sky did not fall, hospital managed just fine (before COVID, that is), nobody's precious heart rate data were leaked, and a…

Jumping from a very clear definition of AFib to very subjective diagnosis of mental health issues isn't something I'm comfortable with.

Noise is relevant because the diagnosis is subjective. We're not talking about timing between heartbeats, we're talking about situation where even medical professionals can't do an invasive quantitative test to say how depressed someone is.

Using privacy invading sensors doesn't make the diagnosis less subjective.

Re: Apple is working on iPhone features to help detect depression, cognitive decline

#100

Post by rlaabs »

kergonath wrote: post #83
amelius wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is the tight integration by Apple: the app and the networking services are implemented by the same company. I'd be ok with an app by a third party which does not automatically gets network access on my phone explicitly or implicitly, so I know my data doesn't leave my phone.

Has there been any indication that health data and the associated sensitive information are leaving the device without the user's consent? They would run afoul of quite a lot of laws and regulations in all western jurisdictions the moment they do that. AFAIK, except when you enrol in a study, none of that depends on network access.

According to a security researcher[1], a 0-day in Analyticsd allowed any installed app to access the users health data.

[1] https://habr.com/en/post/579714/

EDIT: Found the link to the previous HN discussion about this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28637276

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