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Pope Francis and Other Christian Leaders Are Calling for Bold Climate Action

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Re: Pope Francis and Other Christian Leaders Are Calling for Bold Climate Action

#91

Post by dragonwriter »

analog31 wrote: post #47
ArchStanton wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Owing largely to the culture war, American Catholics have provided decisive support to the party that calls global warming a hoax. This isn't a political statement on my part, but just a statistical one. Than why are 44% of Catholics Democrat and only 37% Republican? https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/party-aff... Methinks your own POV poisons your opinions.

True, but if they all went Democratic, it would tip the scales considerably. The margins in many regions are a tiny number of percentage points, and the Senate is 50-50 right now. A small percentage, not even a nationwide majority, have given us a heavily biased supreme court. That's what I mean by decisive support. The Bishops could tip the scales if they were told to. This is about how the Pope could influence the…

> The Bishops could tip the scales if they were told to

No, they couldn't. This is pretty evident on the political issue that the Bishops have most aggressively tried to tell people what stance to take, abortion, where Catholic attitudes are nonetheless split just like the broader country.

Re: Pope Francis and Other Christian Leaders Are Calling for Bold Climate Action

#92

Post by Bobylonian »

Zababa wrote: post #76
ArchStanton wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>True, but if they all went Democratic, it would tip the scales considerably. It would be a tricky thing. You'd have to convince Catholics that Oregon-style abortion law (legal right up until birth) was reasonable and that the normalization of mental illness was desirable (the current rage for transsexuals). OTOH, as a trans-national organization, I could see shifting the Catholic hierarchy into thinking that unlimit…

> OTOH, as a trans-national organization, I could see shifting the Catholic hierarchy into thinking that unlimited mass immigration to Western countries was desirable. More membership, more souls to save and all that. I don't think that's how it works. Churches are usually very "local", and "local" stuff is usually the ones that resists the most immigration.

>Churches are usually very "local", and "local" stuff is usually the ones that resists the most immigration.

This is not how churches should work and how they work. Religion can't be non-inclusive and accepting poor souls of migrants, regardless of their religion is humanitarian trait which is also considered equivalent of being Christian, according to how Christians are taught. Islam takes inclusion to even higher level and development of non-Arabic identity is considered corruption of religion(exception is to Arabic, because Quran is written in it). They do not take migrants, because migration is another sham and if rich nonIslamic countries have decided to take care of them without requirements to receive this support, then they are only bringing problems upon themselves.

Also, lets not forget that Christianity birthed revolutionaries of Europe(at least in eastern part), as it is impossible to make global terrorists from local minded people, it takes Large idea to start to kill other people in the name of one happy united brotherhood of mankind.

For those who have a hard time understanding what I am refering to - Stalin was studying to be a priest, his comrades of that time and 20 years prior mostly came from very religious Christian families, who were more religious and who shunned local "pagan" traditions more than other people. When people lose roots that are string together with traditions, they start to participate in crazy experiments with themselves and other people.

Re: Pope Francis and Other Christian Leaders Are Calling for Bold Climate Action

#93

Post by cletus »

542458 wrote: post #50
cletus wrote: post #42

Hot take: it doesn't matter who comes out in favour of stronger action on climate change. The only way we'll get significant change is when it becomes economic to do so. The world population or even a significant percentage of it won't change their behaviour altruistically even for a minor inconvenience and risk. New coal plants aren't built (mostly) and old ones are closing not because of altruism or a genuine conce…

I don’t think this is strictly true. We banned dumping of waste in the ocean even though it remains the “cheapest” way of disposing of toxic waste. Governments can make it economic for companies and individuals to behave in more environmentally friendly ways, and will do so when enough political pressure arises (note that since we’re correcting for externalities, this is more economically efficient than letting pollu…

If you think about this, this too is just an economic motive. The cost of non-compliance (fines, prosecution, etc) multiplied by the risk of that happening is less than the cost of compliance, so it happens.

People and companies break laws all the time when it's cheaper to do so.

I can't help but think of Fight Club [1].

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiB8GVMNJkE

Re: Pope Francis and Other Christian Leaders Are Calling for Bold Climate Action

#94

Post by ethbr0 »

dools wrote: post #62
cletus wrote: post #42

Hot take: it doesn't matter who comes out in favour of stronger action on climate change. The only way we'll get significant change is when it becomes economic to do so. The world population or even a significant percentage of it won't change their behaviour altruistically even for a minor inconvenience and risk. New coal plants aren't built (mostly) and old ones are closing not because of altruism or a genuine conce…

The religious right in the US are a huge barrier to more progressive policies on a range of issues including climate

And ironically this, a clear and positive sign of that changing, is being lambasted by pot shots at unrelated other religious positions.

Christ almighty, if the fellow you're complaining about walks up to you and says "I've been thinking about that thing you've been going on about, and I'd like to help you..."

... then maybe don't slap them across the face in response.

Re: Pope Francis and Other Christian Leaders Are Calling for Bold Climate Action

#95

Post by ArchStanton »

syvolt wrote: post #83
ArchStanton wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering that the US share of greenhouse gases is fairly small (15% of world total), has decreased quite a lot over time, and becomes harder on the margin, I'd say it's mostly just slinging words for political power at this point. My own take is that you can avoid ecological devastation only through population reduction and in the short term by not up-leveling the Third World via mass immigration and industrializa…

Very hard sell for the "Third World" when rich westerners tell them to stop trying to reach for their heights. Almost like pulling the ladder from under us after we're at the top. Doubt it would mean anything unless it's backed by sanctions, military action or intelligence operations to topple governments that attempt to pull their countries out of poverty. That would make us decisively "the bad guys", regardless of…

That may be, but is it better to be 'fair' or to save the world's ecology? The coral reefs don't much care if some places are poorer than others.

Perhaps one answer would be to allow people to swap citizenships. If you are feeling guilty enough, you could move to Lagos and someone there could move to Palo Alto.

Re: Pope Francis and Other Christian Leaders Are Calling for Bold Climate Action

#96

Post by ethbr0 »

ArchStanton wrote: post #78
PretzelPirate wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> only through population reduction… Since this would necessitate birth control, it would be in direct conflict with the beliefs of the Catholic Church and couldn’t be supported by the Pope.

To be fair, US Catholics appear to have roughly the same birthrate as US Evangelical Protestants, although that might change as Catholic demographics shift to Latino. What we (the world) will be awash in is Moslems and sub Saharan Africans unless those curves get bent via behavior changes, resource depletion, or war. I can't say that the Pope is much involved in that situation.

> I can't say that the Pope is much involved in that situation

Like the 15% of (mostly-sub Saharan) Africa that identifies as Catholic? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_Africa

Re: Pope Francis and Other Christian Leaders Are Calling for Bold Climate Action

#97

Post by laurent92 »

tpm wrote: post #57
laurent92 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the Pope was not a scientist in my registers. Maybe it’s a match because climate change involves more “belief” than science, and they’re both about ideology adherence? Maybe the ideological match is that this pope seems very fond of the idea that every human is equal, to the point one should not be measured by how much they work or how peaceful they are. And therefore, countries which have already implemented g…

Climate change involves more belief than science?

Well, do you “believe in science”? or are you persuaded after reading thousands of boring papers? which contradict each other? Philosophically, if you have an opinion, then it’s not science. More pragmatically, if science converges with an ideology, then the probability is high that both the researchers and the filtering networks have enough bias to invert the results to match the ideology.

Which, you know, we’re seeing that on the 3 main topics of our lives currently (feminism, racism and covid), so it’s not like it never happened.

Re: Pope Francis and Other Christian Leaders Are Calling for Bold Climate Action

#98

Post by [deleted] »

User23 wrote: post #45
legutierr wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and 25% of the US population is Catholic, half of which group votes Republican (i.e., against reforms designed to prevent or slow climate change). If more people come to believe that they have a moral obligation to do what they can to prevent climate change—including by supporting government interventions and investments, and gracefully accepting higher energy costs and energy taxes—then maybe we can hope for a…

> Papal infallibility today doesn't seem to be what it was in the past in the minds of many American Catholics, however. There has been a surprising amount of direct criticism of the pope among conservative American Catholics in recent years That’s not how Papal infallibility works. It has to be explicitly invoked and only for matters of faith and morals. Furthermore doctrine cannot be changed. The Pope can’t speak i…

[deleted]

Re: Pope Francis and Other Christian Leaders Are Calling for Bold Climate Action

#99

Post by unknown_apostle »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #26
unknown_apostle wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Btw, the Catholic Church is not against birth control because it wants to fill up the planet with people. The Church is obliged to teach that sex is supposed to be about a man and a woman taking part in God's ecstatic act of creation, a selfless act of love. Sex without being open to life is porn: without the act of self giving and preparedness to receive children, you are left with a corrupted, self-directed form of…

> Sex without being open to life is porn: without the act of self giving and preparedness to receive children, you are left with a corrupted, self-directed form of pleasure. Nope. I've had 3 kids. I have emotionally and rationally concluded that having another child is inappropriate; it is a form of excess and inbalance. So, I want to have sex for love now. Really, you are going to tell me that, by stopping at 3, I a…

You're not going against the will of God by stopping at 3. Or by not having children at all.

But if you give contraception a fixed place in your life, to have sex which is fundamentally closed to children, then you have introduced a contradiction into your body and into your life.

And yes, He rules over 100 billion galaxies (more if we live in a multiverse) and cares about such things. If you think this is petty or spiteful, then you think too little of your sexuality and of yourself. These 100 billion galaxies were required for you to exist as a human being, called to (try) living a life that prepares you for Heaven.

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