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A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas

economist.com

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Re: A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas

#51

Post by ummwhat »

oh_sigh wrote: post #49
earksiinni wrote: post #46

This find is not as surprising as the Economist article would have you believe. First, what was written about areas beyond Europe's periphery tended to lag behind actual common knowledge of those areas by hundreds of years. An example would be the concept of "the torrid zone," part of an ancient Greek climatic theory that divided the world into two habitable temperate zones, two uninhabitable frigid zones (at the pol…

From [1]: Modern historians and geographers have disputed the veracity of the map and the described voyages, with some accusing the younger Zeno of forgery.

I heard that first he went half way to the new world, then half of that distance, then half of that distance...and never made it in the end.

Re: A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas

#52

Post by ummwhat »

earksiinni wrote: post #46

This find is not as surprising as the Economist article would have you believe. First, what was written about areas beyond Europe's periphery tended to lag behind actual common knowledge of those areas by hundreds of years. An example would be the concept of "the torrid zone," part of an ancient Greek climatic theory that divided the world into two habitable temperate zones, two uninhabitable frigid zones (at the pol…

The informal Chinese word for white people is "Lao Wai" which literally translates as "old foreign" (the formal word for foreigners is Wai gou Ren (foreign country person)). The explanation I was given for the informal word is that it means "the old foreigners, as in the ones we've known about since antiquity."

Re: A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas

#53

Post by earksiinni »

ummwhat wrote: post #52
earksiinni wrote: post #46

This find is not as surprising as the Economist article would have you believe. First, what was written about areas beyond Europe's periphery tended to lag behind actual common knowledge of those areas by hundreds of years. An example would be the concept of "the torrid zone," part of an ancient Greek climatic theory that divided the world into two habitable temperate zones, two uninhabitable frigid zones (at the pol…

The informal Chinese word for white people is "Lao Wai" which literally translates as "old foreign" (the formal word for foreigners is Wai gou Ren (foreign country person)). The explanation I was given for the informal word is that it means "the old foreigners, as in the ones we've known about since antiquity."

Fascinating. Is there a "new" foreign...?

Re: A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas

#54

Post by kinghtown »

ummwhat wrote: post #52
earksiinni wrote: post #46

This find is not as surprising as the Economist article would have you believe. First, what was written about areas beyond Europe's periphery tended to lag behind actual common knowledge of those areas by hundreds of years. An example would be the concept of "the torrid zone," part of an ancient Greek climatic theory that divided the world into two habitable temperate zones, two uninhabitable frigid zones (at the pol…

The informal Chinese word for white people is "Lao Wai" which literally translates as "old foreign" (the formal word for foreigners is Wai gou Ren (foreign country person)). The explanation I was given for the informal word is that it means "the old foreigners, as in the ones we've known about since antiquity."

My experience living in Taiwan is that those terms may literally mean foreigner but their practical usage means white/western people. A native or black american would not be called that. Also, lao wai is the one they go for when they are angry or postering xenophobia amongst each other. I find it to be a needlessly othering term but I try to accept it as not said with explicitly bad intent.

Re: A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas

#55

Post by cafard »

earksiinni wrote: post #46

This find is not as surprising as the Economist article would have you believe. First, what was written about areas beyond Europe's periphery tended to lag behind actual common knowledge of those areas by hundreds of years. An example would be the concept of "the torrid zone," part of an ancient Greek climatic theory that divided the world into two habitable temperate zones, two uninhabitable frigid zones (at the pol…

Herodotus dismisses a story of Phoenicians (acting for the Persian king) sailing around Africa. He says it must be a lie, because they claim that the sun was in the wrong direction--just what for a modern reader strengthens heir claim.

But the notion of trans-Atlantic voyages, the Vikings apart, seems shaky to me.

You are correct that the notion of isolation tends to be carried much too far.

Re: A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas

#56

Post by tialaramex »

interestica wrote: post #42
krapp wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and then mistakenly assumed he made it, since the Caribbean was where he wrongly thought Asia was going to be. ... which is why Native Americans have been referred to as "Indians," because Columbus was certain he'd reached the Indies.

And why the Caribbean is alternatively known as the West Indies.

"No, of course not, not North Wales" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df-uemc-e3w

Re: A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas

#57

Post by zeven7 »

ummwhat wrote: post #51
oh_sigh wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From [1]: Modern historians and geographers have disputed the veracity of the map and the described voyages, with some accusing the younger Zeno of forgery.

I heard that first he went half way to the new world, then half of that distance, then half of that distance...and never made it in the end.

Quite the paradox

Re: A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas

#58

Post by prewett »

ummwhat wrote: post #52
earksiinni wrote: post #46

This find is not as surprising as the Economist article would have you believe. First, what was written about areas beyond Europe's periphery tended to lag behind actual common knowledge of those areas by hundreds of years. An example would be the concept of "the torrid zone," part of an ancient Greek climatic theory that divided the world into two habitable temperate zones, two uninhabitable frigid zones (at the pol…

The informal Chinese word for white people is "Lao Wai" which literally translates as "old foreign" (the formal word for foreigners is Wai gou Ren (foreign country person)). The explanation I was given for the informal word is that it means "the old foreigners, as in the ones we've known about since antiquity."

Lao is often use as a colloquial form of respect. So “ba” means “father”, so “lao ba” is kind of like “my old man”. “Lao ban” (ban meaning business owner / boss) is “boss”. Wives might call their husband “lao gong”. I think “jiu4” is old as in the opposite of new (xin1), as in Jiujinshan (San Francisco, literal, old gold mountain).

Re: A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas

#59

Post by ummwhat »

kinghtown wrote: post #54
ummwhat wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The informal Chinese word for white people is "Lao Wai" which literally translates as "old foreign" (the formal word for foreigners is Wai gou Ren (foreign country person)). The explanation I was given for the informal word is that it means "the old foreigners, as in the ones we've known about since antiquity."

My experience living in Taiwan is that those terms may literally mean foreigner but their practical usage means white/western people. A native or black american would not be called that. Also, lao wai is the one they go for when they are angry or postering xenophobia amongst each other. I find it to be a needlessly othering term but I try to accept it as not said with explicitly bad intent.

The best summary of the word that I've seen is that its a lot like "gringo". Its status as pejorative or descriptive or even endearing depends on how it's said and the context in which it is said and on the person saying it. World of difference between "ey gringo, since when you drink tecate" and "what you doing in our neighborhood gringo".

Re: A monk in 14th-century Italy wrote about the Americas

#60

Post by vmh1928 »

jbay808 wrote: post #30
hprotagonist wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite the opposite: you have copyist monks to thank for the survival of the vast majority of written material that remains from pre-christian antiquity.

I thought that was mostly due to Islamic scholars. Weren't the monks mostly erasing and repurposing old scrolls to make copies of the Bible?

It's complicated but yes, Islamic scholars had a role to play in preserving Greek philosophy.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/arabic-islamic-greek/

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43577272

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