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Leaked grant proposal details high-risk coronavirus research

theintercept.com

101–110 of 494 posts

Re: Leaked grant proposal details high-risk coronavirus research

#101
post #71

Daszak should be compelled to reveal everything he knows and all relevant evidence --- all proposals, all emails, all files, any other documentation. I'm mystified why this hasn't already happened. I mean, his career depends on government largesse so it shouldn't even require coercion. Full cooperation or no cash.

I've been extremely wary of how some of the evidence of Covid-19 origins have come about, particular because so much of it has been presented as "Well, we've never seen this before, so it must have lab origins." That said, I think the context around this is extremely damning for Daszak. I didn't realize this until reading the Wikipedia article on Daszak, but he was the one that organized the Feb 2020 letter in the La…

Yes, I have an open mind about natural vs lab origin, but either way, Daszak seems to have been engaging in a cover-up.

Re: Leaked grant proposal details high-risk coronavirus research

#102
Check out this prescient article from 2017, when the ban was lifted:

Critics say these researchers risk creating a monster germ that could escape the lab and seed a pandemic...

Marc Lipsitch, an epidemiologist who directs the Center for Communicable Disease Dynamics at the Harvard School of Public Health, called review panels “a small step forward.”

Recent disease-enhancing experiments, he said, “have given us some modest scientific knowledge and done almost nothing to improve our preparedness for pandemics, and yet risked creating an accidental pandemic.”

Therefore, he said, he hoped the panels would turn down such work.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/19/health/lethal-viruses-nih...

Re: Leaked grant proposal details high-risk coronavirus research

#103

if you called someone crazy at some point for suggesting this as a possibility, it is time to pause and reflect

I've asked people to explain to me why I should care one way or another, beyond curiosity, and no one has been able to answer yet. That is to say, is there an actual person who is perfectly fine with all the terrible things the CCP plainly does, but finding out that they've been incompetently handling research will suddenly make them change their views?

The reason why you need to care is because this isn't a CCP problem; its a global problem.

Sure, maybe the CCP screwed up containment, and that mistake cost millions of lives. Every single major government around the planet has facilities like the one we're discussing. Every single one has made mistakes like the CCP possibly did. The CCP were just unlucky in that their mistake wasn't confined to one person or the welcome lobby.

Knowing it was engineered in a lab would put a bigger spotlight on facilities like these. Unfortunately, its most likely to only result in sanctions against China, but if the people in charge could summon an ounce of sense, it could also mean more of these facilities being shut down, their research suspended, and the live cultures of humanity-destroying plagues in their vaults destroyed.

Re: Leaked grant proposal details high-risk coronavirus research

#104

[deleted]

Here's four reasons:

- Only with accountability can there be some deterrence. Especially if there were actors outside of China that were involved.

- The details of the post-mortem will give us valuable insights that we can't get by simply imagining up a worst case from our armchair. If a plane crashes, we want to figure out why it crashed and make specific improvements, rather than just assuming what happened and acting based on a loose and inaccurate mental model.

- If it did leak, there needs to be a cultural reckoning and introspection as to how this was allowed to be so taboo for so long.

- If it did leak, public knowledge of that may be what causes there to be sufficient political will to get regulatory safeguards implemented

Re: Leaked grant proposal details high-risk coronavirus research

#105
I would like to see an international body of scientists from all countries regulating, and monitoring, all biologicals research around the world.

Think of it being an requirement to join the United Nations.

Those countries that arn't in the UN, or don't want moderation; well let's say let the CIA do their dirty work, or outright tariff/humanitarian wars.

(I don't have a clue to the origin of this mutating virus, but letting any lab anywhere experiment on biologicals does not seem prudent.)

Re: Leaked grant proposal details high-risk coronavirus research

#106
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your characterisation of the evidence, except I think "Points to" is not synonymous with "smoking gun" so I don't think the criticism of the title is valid. In terms of how important this evidence is, it isn't just "a novel aspect of a viral genome", it is the aspect of the genome which is hardest to square with a natural origin. And it is an aspect that scientists involved in this research explicitly pr…

I guess "smoking gun" is too strong. Maybe what I should have said is something like "there's been a new development which completely changes the characterization of the sequence of events leading up to the pandemic." What you're saying is worth looking deeper into, but it's not enough to start making claims yet, imo. There are probably hundreds or thousands of proposals and papers floating around now that talk about…

I'm going to take a wild guess that when you first heard Trump call it the "China virus" you were as utterly horrified and revolted as I was. You had every right to be.

Like me, you probably viewed it as a deliberate attempt to distract from his administration's incompetence. Like me, you probably decided right then and there that it was a natural virus and recognized that a bulk of the people saying otherwise just HAPPENED to be people who wanted Trump re-elected.

There comes a point where you have to recognize that you have made decisions with incomplete information and emotional biases, and that those decisions sometimes need to be completely cast out, with an objective, reasoned look at the latest facts.

At this point, the evidence that you reasonably state needs to be found has long been eradicated by the second most powerful nation state the world has ever seen. An authoritarian one, with the ability to make any critic disappear. There will never be an actual smoking gun, because the CCP had months of knowledge of what they had accidentally released before the rest of the planet knew it existed. All of the evidence was within their borders. The eradication of this evidence is itself an incredibly strong indication of guilt, particularly combined with the mountains of circumstantial evidence that point to this being a lab leak. If a detective walks into a suspected murderers bedroom, and finds that all of the surfaces have been bleached and the carpet has been ripped up, he doesn't have definitive evidence that the suspect is a murderer. But he does have evidence that they are trying to hide something.

Re: Leaked grant proposal details high-risk coronavirus research

#107

[deleted]

1. We can do two things at a time. Investigation of origins does not block anyone from making and following policies to stop the spread. 2. I don't know about you but I have lost more than 1.5 years of my life to this. World around me has changed fundamentally in many ways. Just for closures sake I would like to know why this happened to me.

2. It has more to do with your country’s government than the source of the virus, hence my comment

Even if you knew would anything change? I’m not advocating for ignorance, rather that it’s impossible to know conclusively without full cooperation and it’s in the interest of all parties to deflect

Re: Leaked grant proposal details high-risk coronavirus research

#108
post #91
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (I'm assuming, of course, that it wasn't the article title that got subsequently changed. If that was the case, ignore the above.) Not the first time I've seen you say this. Would it be worthwhile to fetch articles when they're submitted, if only for your own sanity?

Fetching them in a way that information (like titles) can be meaningfully extracted from is a lot harder than it sounds - we've worked on it in the past and got bogged down in lots of details and corner cases etc. An easier way might be to rely on one of the archiving services, e.g. archive.org. If a snapshot could be taken at submission time than it would be there to refer to later. On the other hand, titles changin…

> information (like titles) can be meaningfully extracted

From a technical perspective it's probably simpler to just grep the page for the user-submitted title.

Re: Leaked grant proposal details high-risk coronavirus research

#109

[deleted]

you mean figuring out what caused a global pandemic, deaths of millions of people and trillions dollars of economic damage is of no consequence?

if we figure out, what then? Are they to blame for all the death?

Re: Leaked grant proposal details high-risk coronavirus research

#110

1. There is no viral backbone anyone knows of which would have been used in this research 2. There is no spike protein anyone knows of which would have been used in this research 3. The PRRAR furin cleavage site is not one humans would have tried it is unlike any other known furin cleavage sites in coronaviruses 4. There are now many known related sarbecoviruses which have been found with furin cleavage sites 5. Furi…

I doubt Wuhan GoF researchers will be publishing their findings anytime soon, until then it's all speculation.
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