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Food fraud and counterfeit cotton: detectives untangling the global supply chain

theguardian.com

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Re: Food fraud and counterfeit cotton: detectives untangling the global supply chain

#51

Post by nsxwolf »

BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #49
anonchan wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The forced labor described in the article is unjustifiable. But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture is worse than America imprisoning people for (at least mostly) real criminal convictions.

> But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture is worse than America imprisoning people for (at least mostly) real criminal convictions. My culture says that growing and smoking cannabis is good. The US disagrees and makes that nonviolent crime a felony. The Uyghur culture says that worshipping Allah is good. China disagrees and makes that nonviolent crime a felony. What's the…

You're asking "how should we decide what is moral or criminal", which is just a bit smaller a question than "what is the meaning of life?"

Re: Food fraud and counterfeit cotton: detectives untangling the global supply chain

#52

Post by runsWphotons »

OldHand2018 wrote: post #50

This is an interesting article. It also makes me think that this kind of analysis presents a lot of opportunities. Take for example the Chinese beef being labeled as premium New Zealand beef and sold for much higher prices in supermarkets. If shoppers can't tell the difference without this analysis, then it implies that the price differential between these two products is larger than it should be. That specific Chine…

I don’t think it’s true it implies the price differential is wrong. Just because you can’t tell the difference by consuming it, it doesn’t mean there is no difference you should care about.

Re: Food fraud and counterfeit cotton: detectives untangling the global supply chain

#53

Post by jdavis703 »

OldHand2018 wrote: post #50

This is an interesting article. It also makes me think that this kind of analysis presents a lot of opportunities. Take for example the Chinese beef being labeled as premium New Zealand beef and sold for much higher prices in supermarkets. If shoppers can't tell the difference without this analysis, then it implies that the price differential between these two products is larger than it should be. That specific Chine…

In a lot of cases we can taste the difference. Organic vs. conventional chicken has a different mouthfeel. And Wagyu Beef vs. regular beef also has a similar different feel.

However I also buy free-range organic eggs and milk. I’d have no idea if those products were mislabeled. But it also makes me feel better I’m not contributing to cruel factory farming and antibiotic abuse. If that’s not the case, oh well. I did all I could reasonably do aside from going vegan.

Re: Food fraud and counterfeit cotton: detectives untangling the global supply chain

#54

Post by BugsJustFindMe »

nsxwolf wrote: post #51
BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture is worse than America imprisoning people for (at least mostly) real criminal convictions. My culture says that growing and smoking cannabis is good. The US disagrees and makes that nonviolent crime a felony. The Uyghur culture says that worshipping Allah is good. China disagrees and makes that nonviolent crime a felony. What's the…

You're asking "how should we decide what is moral or criminal", which is just a bit smaller a question than "what is the meaning of life?"

I'm actually saying that it's derisible to say that our incarceration system is less culture-bound when we have half a million people imprisoned (1 in 5 prisoners) for nonviolent drug crimes.

Re: Food fraud and counterfeit cotton: detectives untangling the global supply chain

#55

Post by QuarterReptile »

linuxftw wrote: post #39
ilamont wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just cotton. Fighting fires. Making License plates. Doing laundry. The difference is U.S. prisoners are convicted felons. Many volunteer for these jobs, such as the firefighters in California. Others are paid a small wage for their work or get reduced sentences. In China, it's members of specific minority groups such as Uyghurs who are singled out and put into concentration camps ... not because of what they have…

> The difference is U.S. prisoners are members of specific minority groups FTFY. > Many volunteer for these jobs True, because the alternative is being locked in your cell 23 hours per day. In any case, using slave labor for profit is morally abhorrent. It creates very negative societal incentives, and it allows keeping the overall labor rate lower. I'd happily fight fires in CA or elsewhere, if the price is right.

>True, because the alternative is being locked in your cell 23 hours per day.

Source? A family member was charged with a felony for drugs and went to prison, and he was certainly not locked in his cell 23 hours daily.

Re: Food fraud and counterfeit cotton: detectives untangling the global supply chain

#56

Post by linuxftw »

QuarterReptile wrote: post #55
linuxftw wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The difference is U.S. prisoners are members of specific minority groups FTFY. > Many volunteer for these jobs True, because the alternative is being locked in your cell 23 hours per day. In any case, using slave labor for profit is morally abhorrent. It creates very negative societal incentives, and it allows keeping the overall labor rate lower. I'd happily fight fires in CA or elsewhere, if the price is right.

>True, because the alternative is being locked in your cell 23 hours per day. Source? A family member was charged with a felony for drugs and went to prison, and he was certainly not locked in his cell 23 hours daily.

Not all prisons are the same. The labor camps operate like this, your family member was either not in one of these prisons, or he took the job.

Re: Food fraud and counterfeit cotton: detectives untangling the global supply chain

#57

Post by kaesar14 »

pphysch wrote: post #12
sofixa wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to name which ones do? China, US, probably Russia? Who else?

US, Germany, Russia, Brazil, China, India, etc. The truth is that giving convicted prisoners opportunities to work is probably a big net positive. I'm sure plenty of them would work for pennies rather than rot in a cell. The root of the problem is if there is injustice in sentencing or coercive work conditions. Not the work itself. But that requires far more investigation to establish than pearl-clutching about the u…

They should be paid market rate for their labor. Why should prison take away your basic financial rights.

Edit: it's disgusting to me that anyone downvoted this. what do you believe, if not that people have a right to the fruits of their labor, even as criminals? believing otherwise is believing in slavery and exploitation.

Re: Food fraud and counterfeit cotton: detectives untangling the global supply chain

#58

Post by tyrfing »

pphysch wrote: post #20
ilamont wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just cotton. Fighting fires. Making License plates. Doing laundry. The difference is U.S. prisoners are convicted felons. Many volunteer for these jobs, such as the firefighters in California. Others are paid a small wage for their work or get reduced sentences. In China, it's members of specific minority groups such as Uyghurs who are singled out and put into concentration camps ... not because of what they have…

Both media sources rely on speculation from one individual, so why not just link that shared source?

You've made about 20 comments in this thread, mostly demanding sources and then dismissing those sources with vague ad-hominem and making zero attempt to engage with the substance of any claims.

Since you seem to be very well educated on this topic, can you share your sources? I'm eager to read them.

Re: Food fraud and counterfeit cotton: detectives untangling the global supply chain

#59

Post by BugsJustFindMe »

random314 wrote: post #34
BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #5

> Most recently, the apparel world has been roiled by revelations that cotton from Xinjiang, in China, is being grown and processed using forced labour. The scandal...prompted sanctions and restrictions in the west on imports made of Xinjiang cotton. This is super weird because the US _also_ still uses forced prison labor to pick cotton.

That's unfortunate. However, folks in the US prison system have been convicted of crimes.

Ignoring the fact that we've had prisoners, in places like e.g. Guantanamo, on and off who were/are held for decades without ever even being charged with anything, China has also charged its prisoners with crimes.

You don't agree with China's decision to make practicing religion a crime, I don't agree with the US's decision to make possessing drugs a crime. Both are "crimes" punishable by incarceration according to the two governments.

Re: Food fraud and counterfeit cotton: detectives untangling the global supply chain

#60

Post by rapjr9 »

From the article: "If the elements in the soil and water of a region work their way into the plants grown there, they also work their way into our bodies when we eat the produce of those plants, or when we eat the meat of animals fed on those plants. We ingest these elements, process them, and use them to build flesh, teeth and bones. So the elements making up our bodies can tell us something about the food we’ve eaten and the land that supports us."

Seems like the same idea would apply to regional differences in health including mental health. An obvious one would be if the land is high in lead, the people living on it might be more violent. Areas with oil wells are likely affecting air and food quality. Maybe areas with a lot of lithium result in happier people. Western medicine has largely ignored environmental effects. A map of background radiation levels across the world might have an interesting health story to tell as could multi-spectral satellite imagery. Oritain might be sitting on a wealth of very useful health data, unaware of it.

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