Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

dailybusinessgroup.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

461–470 of 699 posts

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#461

Post by nightski »

arcticbull wrote: post #416
nightski wrote: post #336

Wow, imagine living in a country where the legal financial assets you own can be turned criminal where accessing them is punished with hard labor. Sounds like a dystopian nightmare.

Imagine living in a civilized country that can't bring itself to ban a massive distributed Ponzi scheme with huge environmental consequences. Bitcoin alone uses about 1/10th as much energy as the entire world's concrete production. Even if it were to transition entirely to renewable energy it also generates as much e-waste as an entire first-world country. These things actually have huge meaningful state security ris…

It doesn't even meet the basic definition of a ponzi scheme. This is pure FUD. You might not like it, but that doesn't make it something it is not. There are plenty of other things that I would consider a waste of electricity but I am not going to make doing them punishable by hard labor.

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#462

Post by thesz »

Jyaif wrote: post #396
Torwald wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that crypto mining is bad for the climate is short-sighted. It is based on the wrong assumption of a static universe. But this world is not static. Let's say for example, all goverments would become more strict in taxing energy consumption. (Presumably to help save the climate.) Now at some point there is a market incentive to develop mining techniques that optimize for less energy consumption above all else…

> Now at some point there is a market incentive to develop mining techniques that optimize for less energy consumption above all else. There is already a market incentive for that (electricity is not free), and there is already a solution to this (proof of stake). Please stop advocating and using proof of work shitcoins.

Proof of stake leads to "rich gets richer" situation [1]. Proof of work is much more fair, it appears.

[1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.14713.pdf

This particular paper shows that every proof-of-stake variant is fallible into the "rich get richer". That means these PoS schemes do look like shitcoins, not the other way around.

Given that and given that I do not like Biticoin in any of its capacities (PoW is not even the most wrong thing with btc), I would like to advise everyone to hate all cryptocurrencies equally strong.

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#463

Post by arcticbull »

gfodor wrote: post #456
arcticbull wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine living in a civilized country that can't bring itself to ban a massive distributed Ponzi scheme with huge environmental consequences. Bitcoin alone uses about 1/10th as much energy as the entire world's concrete production. Even if it were to transition entirely to renewable energy it also generates as much e-waste as an entire first-world country. These things actually have huge meaningful state security ris…

It's going to look a lot less like a Ponzi scheme if/when the dollar collapses.

No, it won't. It's a negative-sum system that redistributes wealth from new entrants to old entrants and miners. It's a pyramid.

And what exact path do you see a 'dollar collapse'?

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#464

Post by dnautics »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #454
reedjosh wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets not bear this then. Central Bank Digital Currency is just around the corner if crypto is banned. CBDC is an authoritarian's wet dream. Speak against the government--you're no longer allowed to transact in society. Retroactive tax...boom, negative balance.

What do you propose as a solution for central banks and monetary policy attempting to operate in structural stagnation [1]? Do you believe digital tulips will maintain their value as real productivity declines due to demographics? Physical cash can be inflated with relatively the same ease as a CBDC through QE. You're seeking a level of control and authority of monetary policy only accessible to nation states. We agr…

Technology may not solve problems at the people layer but it can certainly be a forcing factor for reform. You don't think, for example, airplane tech has had an impact on immigration law?

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#465

Post by [deleted] »

nemothekid wrote: post #446
nightski wrote: post #336

Wow, imagine living in a country where the legal financial assets you own can be turned criminal where accessing them is punished with hard labor. Sounds like a dystopian nightmare.

We already have this in America, Civil Asset Forfeiture is already out of control.

[deleted]

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#466

Post by arcticbull »

nightski wrote: post #461
arcticbull wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine living in a civilized country that can't bring itself to ban a massive distributed Ponzi scheme with huge environmental consequences. Bitcoin alone uses about 1/10th as much energy as the entire world's concrete production. Even if it were to transition entirely to renewable energy it also generates as much e-waste as an entire first-world country. These things actually have huge meaningful state security ris…

It doesn't even meet the basic definition of a ponzi scheme. This is pure FUD. You might not like it, but that doesn't make it something it is not. There are plenty of other things that I would consider a waste of electricity but I am not going to make doing them punishable by hard labor.

It's a negative sum wealth redistribution scheme the takes money from new entrants and gives it to miners and to old entrants. The miner portion is what makes it negative-sum.

It doesn't meet the traditional definition, no, which is why I referred to it as a "distributed Ponzi scheme" - it's closer to an MLM in classical parlance.

[edit] Here's the SEC definition:

> A Ponzi scheme is an investment fraud that pays existing investors with funds collected from new investors. Ponzi scheme organizers often promise to invest your money and generate high returns with little or no risk. But in many Ponzi schemes, the fraudsters do not invest the money. Instead, they use it to pay those who invested earlier and may keep some for themselves.

> With little or no legitimate earnings, Ponzi schemes require a constant flow of new money to survive. When it becomes hard to recruit new investors, or when large numbers of existing investors cash out, these schemes tend to collapse.

And here are the red flags that the SEC warns folks to watch for:

> High returns with little or no risk.

> Unregistered investments.

> Unlicensed sellers.

> Secretive, complex strategies.

[edit2] So with that in mind, it meets many (but not all) of the classic definition elements.

1. All returns are generated by bringing new money into the system. The only way someone can make money on Bitcoin is if a new person invests. That money is then distributed to the earlier participant, net of miner fees.

2. There is no actual business underlying.

3. The constant flow of new money is required to keep the price from collapsing because miners extract something like $50M in welfare from the system per day.

4. The entire space is unregistered investments hawked by unlicensed sellers.

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#468

Post by dnautics »

thirdvect0r wrote: post #399
nightski wrote: post #336

Wow, imagine living in a country where the legal financial assets you own can be turned criminal where accessing them is punished with hard labor. Sounds like a dystopian nightmare.

Imagine living in a country that allows you to destroy the environment for a fake currency. Your worldview is ridiculous.

Imagine living in a country that drops depleted uranium on civilians as part of it's programme to hegemonize its 'real' currency!

Or living in a country that continuously devalues its currency, forcing exponential consumption, thus stealing from the poor to give to the rich and destroying the environment while at it?

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#469

Post by gfodor »

almost_usual wrote: post #309
quotemstr wrote: post #302

And the anti-cryptocurrency sentiment I've seen all over HN --- which appeared suddenly a few months ago --- is totally organic, right? I'm sick and tired of everything being a narrative manipulation op.

HN has been mostly anti crypto as far as I can remember.

It actually makes sense, the "YC generation" turnover is overdue. A few will pass through to the next dialectical synthesis successfully, but a lot are going to be left behind.

Crypto is one of several things which are going to carry things through to the new order. (Avatar embodiment and pseudonymous identity is another, and DAOs taking the place of traditional startups is another.) A lot of people here are going to be left confused and angry, but that's the nature of change: the innovators of the past boil slowly into being stuck in their ways and unable to adapt.

Re: China declares cryptocurrency deals ‘illegal’

#470

Post by nightski »

arcticbull wrote: post #466
nightski wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't even meet the basic definition of a ponzi scheme. This is pure FUD. You might not like it, but that doesn't make it something it is not. There are plenty of other things that I would consider a waste of electricity but I am not going to make doing them punishable by hard labor.

It's a negative sum wealth redistribution scheme the takes money from new entrants and gives it to miners and to old entrants. The miner portion is what makes it negative-sum. It doesn't meet the traditional definition, no, which is why I referred to it as a "distributed Ponzi scheme" - it's closer to an MLM in classical parlance. [edit] Here's the SEC definition: > A Ponzi scheme is an investment fraud that pays exi…

Miner fees are paid from transaction fees (since mining is quite literally verifying transactions). You don't lose value for miners being paid.
Post reply on HN