Live data from Hacker News

Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

newyorker.com

161–170 of 172 posts

Re: Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Battle for Wesnoth is my go to 2D turn-based strategy game. It isn’t anywhere near as advanced as Civ but it scratches my itch.

Wesnoth is tactical, not strategy. Its a good game (albeit too luck based IMO... Just get used to the "luck swings" of battle), but a totally different genre than 4X / Strategy. Civilization is on the easier / simpler end of 4X / Strategy... and believe me, this is a good thing!! Things get really complicated. Paradox games (Victoria, Hearts of Iron, Crusader Kings, Europa Universialis) are the "complicated" games, t…

> Civ leans towards the simpler/tactics side, but is just barely enough "Strategy" that I'd group it in the strategy side of things.

Civ I’d say (while relatively simple in most versions) is very much on the strategy side. While maneuvering units in the battle theater matters, wars are mostly won or lost by the tech and economics and diplomatic situation going in, and the timing of the decisions to start and end the war.

Re: Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wesnoth is tactical, not strategy. Its a good game (albeit too luck based IMO... Just get used to the "luck swings" of battle), but a totally different genre than 4X / Strategy. Civilization is on the easier / simpler end of 4X / Strategy... and believe me, this is a good thing!! Things get really complicated. Paradox games (Victoria, Hearts of Iron, Crusader Kings, Europa Universialis) are the "complicated" games, t…

> Civ leans towards the simpler/tactics side, but is just barely enough "Strategy" that I'd group it in the strategy side of things. Civ I’d say (while relatively simple in most versions) is very much on the strategy side. While maneuvering units in the battle theater matters, wars are mostly won or lost by the tech and economics and diplomatic situation going in, and the timing of the decisions to start and end the…

Civ 1, 2, 3, 4 were more strategic IMO.

Civ5 and Civ6 has moved more tactical. I'm spending more and more time thinking about where to place units, because they no longer "stack up" with each other. Collision detection for the human means that I need to put more effort into deciding where to move and place my units.

Yeah yeah yeah, people were confused about "stack kills" in Civ1/2/3, and without stack-kills, Civ4 combat grew dull. So maybe removing stacks all together was a solution (the current direction for Civ5 and Civ6).

--------

Somewhere along the line, combat was no longer a guaranteed killer. (Civ1/2 was definitely a "win you live, lose you die" for every combat). Civ6, now I'm thinking about movement points, where to retreat to, how to save up HP again and recover, whether or not I can cutoff the opponent's retreat. These are more tactical elements.

I feel like Civ6 has pushed "strategy" through its government card system, which is pretty abstract (Oh, you just got a new government card! Time for a new war! I'm going to equip +100% pillage bonus and +4 Strength bonus). A lot of Civ6 is about abusing the multiplicative bonuses of these cards at the right timing.

Re: Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

#164

Civ 4 was the last true Civ to have a gameplay similar to the the originals. Civ 5 and 6 introduced unit stacking constraints that completely change the way the game is played. If WW2 happened in Civ 5 or 6, the Normandy landings would not have been possible because you would not be able to stack large number of units in one tile. Those landings were "a death stack". But even if every large battle in history could be…

To anyone who enjoyed Civ4 especially, I would strongly recommend Old World, a classical antiquity period game that in many ways feels like a sequel to Civ4, and does a far better job with 1UPT than Civ5 or Civ6 did. Old World is designed by Soren Johnson, and multiple people on the team are straight from Civ4 days. (Disclaimer: I'm one of the game's developers)

My favorite part in Civ is when you transition to gunpowder/railroads/factories, and when you can explore the high seas.

Unfortunately Old World has only antiquity and classical eras.

Re: Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

#165
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to it, Civ 1 graphics are actually quite beautiful in a pixel art way. With Civ 3, you could use for example a watercolor art pack for the terrain, which was great. And still very legible. The 3d art just looks like a console game aesthetic - it's extremely kitschy - I guess I'm just not in the target demographic.

Same thing happened to Age of Empires and Railroad Tycoon. The 3d versions were never as special to me.

This was the watercolor terrain pack for civ 3, maybe it was better in my memory. https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/warpstorm-watercolor-...

Maybe there could be a "Civ for adults". With just way less content, shorter games and a more mature art style.

Civ 1 didn't have: culture, religion, great persons, great works, armies, ranged units, luxuries, strategic resources, building placement, unit xp/promotion. Civ 1 didn't even have an improvement for forest tiles.

Civ 1 did have as extra: home city for units. Marine units had to be transported by ship - but that added an interesting mechanic, you had to protect your super important transport loaded with 7 very expensive units. Terrain improvements took a really long time so you had to have multiple settlers work on the same tile. Some superfluous things like fortresses. Small city spam ruined Civ 1.

Re: Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

#166
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it matters whether or not you look at games that are a single "work" or games that are part of a series. For example, I think Lukas Pope is a good modern example of single author creating really unique and novel games. Civ 2 and Alpha Centauri on the other hand are more like good examples of fresh ideas being injected into a series under new leadership.

>Civ 2 and Alpha Centauri on the other hand are more like good examples of fresh ideas being injected into a series under new leadership. I didn't play civ2, but what fresh ideas did alpha centauri bring?

Well, for example the terrain-manipulation mechanics are much more fleshed out, due to it aiming to be a "hard sci-fi" game with terraforming and xeno-biology. It even has a simple terrain-based weather model where (for example) the shadow-side of mountains have less rainfall, influencing fertility.

There was the ability to do unit customization (which actually could get a bit overwhelming to teenage me), which came from other 4X gamee set in space I guess.

Another thing is that Civ 1/2 didn't really have very strong differences between nations gameplay wise (if you played as them, enemy AI is a different story). That really started with Alpha Centauri and its ideological factions being partially represented by their gameplay strengths and weaknesses. The way it balances an implied a grander sci-fi narrative through these ideological factions and quotes from their leaders on the one hand, and gameplay mechanics affecting how these factions evolve with the development of new technologies on the other was novel and hasn't really been equalled since imo.

Re: Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven’t thought of it like that before. Thanks so much for the breakdown. What is your favorite? Or what would you suggest to someone that likes the tactics side more than the strategy side with my two faves actually mentioned by you: Héroes of Might and Magic and Starcraft.

If you've never tried Advance Wars-style tactics, I suggest Wargroove, which has been my favorite tactics-game for the past couple of years. Wargroove's AI is a bit dumb compared to Adv. War's Days of Ruin however. The game really shines as a competitive player-vs-player setting. But if you're not used to the mechanics of Adv. Wars, you probably need the easier AI to learn how quirks of Adv. Wars style / Wargroove st…

Thank you! Haven’t played any Advance Wars but I will check out Wargroove.

Re: Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

#168
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Total War is a technical miracle. I've yet to see any other games have so many animated units on screen in a battle at once. Other games don't even come close. It creates an amazing atmosphere.

Yes and no. I followed the first Total War game (Shogun) from before it's release and it was just sprites on a 3d board. When it went full-3D it just used batching. True, they always slightly pushed what graphics were capable of but not necessarily to the same degree as the FPS or RPG genres.

But thousands of animated characters on screen is pushing the graphics. You can't really do the same in a standard way with an off-the-shelf engine. You put 500 animated characters on screen in UE4 and everything is going to crawl to a halt.

RTS games even today limit players to ~200 pop each.

Re: Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

#169
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me repeat my words: "All the greatest scientists in late 1970s were talking about coming of a new Ice Age." Different theories of global warming at that time were only theories and not that significant and are not even comparable to that heavy weight of the whale what is understood under "Global warming" today. >You can’t use sci-fi to draw conclusions about anything except the culture in which it rises. I can dr…

> even Hitler Nazi behaviour of scientists, Rounding up millions and forcing them into slave labour camps and working them to death in weapons factories in a futile effort to conquer the Soviet Union? No? Then have you considered the possibility that it’s the “it’s not real” campaigners who are politicising this? > However my conclusions about human behaviours has nothing to do with the volcanic activity, that will p…

Nazis and Soviets had ability to destroy lives of people even without sending them to labor camps. Not sure what you had in mind, but people in British weapon factories also were worked and driven to death.

>Volcanic activity is already accounted for. Human activity vastly exceeds its effects.

Be real. That is neither possible according to modern human technological advances, nor is true.

>What would you consider “not religious”?

Anything that is not based on belief.

>I’m basing 90%-ish on the size of change we are concerned with preventing versus the magnitude of the difference between the earth and the moon

Well, that is interesting and unique take upon the global warming, but somehow without dipping into this deeper I don't think, that this approach is effective to describe global warming or is even taken into account. This only reflects, that you are a human being and have independent thinking, but I would not waste that on something that is waste of time... unless you are serious on making career on this.

>Though frankly, as you’ve already gone for argument by reductio-nazi-absurdum, I’m honestly expecting you to dispute the temperature of the moon at this point.

Are you ok? You decided to be white knight because I responded to someones else comment that he was picking out and declaring, that we knew about global warming forever, which is not so. People in northern hemisphere would specifically ignore memories about gradual warming or warmer periods and remember about cold winters and tell about them for other generations - it is just how it happened, and they would not tell about something good, that gave them slightly better tan, but they would tell about those winters that killed their cattle and how they survived through it.

Dude, just calm down - arguing is one thing, but I do not deserve your personal attack on me - only because I have my own opinion about this scam and also about the people who use it to gain personal benefits out of it.

Of course Sun sunspot maximum is coming closer and there is also link to that people get crazy during that period... anyway - this is way off the topic of Sid Meyers Civilization, when people were not as batshit crazy about nothing as now.

Re: Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

#170

Absolutely loved this series, but never acclimated to the 3D maps they switched to after Civ 3. You couldn't see as much of the world at once, and units and terrain became more difficult to discern. I wound up playing in the strategic overlay, with mods that relieved some of the claustrophobia, but it never felt as slick as the earlier 2D / isomorphic view. Other classic strategy games from that era followed the tren…

Folks always call me insane for only ever playing Civ5 in strategic mode. Glad i'm not alone
Post reply on HN