Using two keyboards at once for pain relief • Hacker News Board

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#161

Post by lowbloodsugar » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

I also use two Apple Magic Keyboards, though angled in rather than out. I have tried various keyboards, including ones with cherry, and I own a split Kinesis for Mac. They all have the same problem: when I am away from my desk (or country) I need to use the laptop keyboard. So I have two magic keyboards, or I have one. Has to be the magic keyboard, not the big one with the numpad, because that one has the modifiers and cursor keys in different locations (no Fn for example).

It's not for everyone, but I wish everyone else would leave off the "Oh thats so bad for you", "Oh your life will be changed by a Cherry whatever". It's not and it wasn't. Feel free to share positive outcomes, but don't insist your solution will work for everyone.

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#162

Post by ajford » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

flamwenco wrote: post #104

roganartu wrote: post #11

> I tried a few of those Kinesis split keyboards. Too squishy for me. Not far enough apart. The CherryMX Kinesis split keyboard was is too clickey for calls and screenshares. Muscle memory made it difficult to switch. This is a really cool hack, and I’m happy that the author found a solution for their pain that works for them, but this bit confused me. Kinesis are keyboards with separated key clusters, but not split…

Having recently gotten back into mechanical keyboards, partially for ergonomic reasons, I can say the Moonlander so far is the single board I regret purchasing. Almost $400 for a board that is so poorly designed you have to choose between a usable thumb cluster position or a comfortable tenting angle, because the thumb cluster is used as one of the tenting legs. So unless you have giant hands, it's just a very poor e…

Yeah, I can't imagine the Moonlander being a great fit for someone with normal/small hands. I got a Moonlander and happen to love it. Though, I really wish they hadn't decided to make the thumb cluster a tenting leg. I think that's my biggest complaint about it.

ZSA does sell a tenting leg kit that I believe should allow you to swap the thumb cluster screw for a leg, but I haven't tried it myself. It's only $24. Additionally, they have a 3d-printable file for a tenting leg that should work as well, if you happen to have a printer.

The Dactyl Manuform and Ergodox are also decent options for anyone looking for something like the ZSA Moonlander but don't want to deal with the Moonlander's issues. The Lily58 and Corne have far too few keys for my liking, but to each there own.

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#163

Post by CraigJPerry » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

ktm5j wrote: post #133

CraigJPerry wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know, there really is something to it - i bought a Zsa Moonlander keyboard last year which is two split halves. I instantly felt a comfort i’ve never had before or since around my shoulder blades. It was really satisfying. That said, i sold the keyboard after only a few months and i’m back to a normal style keyboard so it wasn’t that big a deal clearly.

Oh I'm not trying to say which keyboard setup is better than the other.. just that I think a normal keyboard works fine if you've got some core strength and good posture. But you know, that's totally just like, my opinion man.

Apologies if that came off wrongly - wasn't intended that way

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#164

Post by 2muchcoffeeman » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

roganartu wrote: post #11

> I tried a few of those Kinesis split keyboards. Too squishy for me. Not far enough apart. The CherryMX Kinesis split keyboard was is too clickey for calls and screenshares. Muscle memory made it difficult to switch. This is a really cool hack, and I’m happy that the author found a solution for their pain that works for them, but this bit confused me. Kinesis are keyboards with separated key clusters, but not split…

This guy seems to have given up too soon. There are also normal spilt keyboards like the UHK. And even cheaper Chinese options like the Mistel Barocco. These Chinese keyboards are what most people should get if they need a split keyboard.

Normal keyboard layout, just split. Connected by a coiled USBC to USBC cable that you could replace with a longer cable.

I use the Mistel which fine for me. The layout never bothered me, just the distance between the halves and the lack of tenting.

They are also programmable which is useful when you can’t use software to remap your keys.

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#165

Post by pro_zac » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

gorbachev wrote: post #12

Any one of the keyboards listed on https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards would be better than that.

Great list! I have the Koolertron (aka SmartYao) and love it. (Though I don't recommend the version with backlit keys) Before that I had one called the Comfort Keyboard. I wore a groove into the spacebar over a decade of use. My favorite feature of split keyboards is programming the left spacebar to backspace.

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#166

Post by Cu3PO42 » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

wolrah wrote: post #52

cma wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switching to ortholinear can really mess you up when you have to use a laptop or colleague's keyboard.

I've been using a Moonlander exclusively on my desktop since November 2020 while having no trouble continuing to use a Macbook Air or my old Acer laptop. The differently placed modifier keys on the laptops screw me up infinitely more than going from an ortholinear split to a laptop and back.

I've also been using a Moonlander since late 2020 and going back to a laptop has been fine. The fact that on my two Lenovo laptops, the Ctrl and Fn keys are not in the same order (whoever thought this was a good idea?) is anecdotally also a much more frequent cause of issues.

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#167

Post by ruffrey » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #161

I also use two Apple Magic Keyboards, though angled in rather than out. I have tried various keyboards, including ones with cherry, and I own a split Kinesis for Mac. They all have the same problem: when I am away from my desk (or country) I need to use the laptop keyboard. So I have two magic keyboards, or I have one. Has to be the magic keyboard, not the big one with the numpad, because that one has the modifiers a…

Op here, thanks for that! I sometimes type on the MacBook keyboard and it helps to have an identical layout and feel. Just seeing all the stories here about ergonomic hacks is awesome!

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#168

Post by ajford » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

ben7799 wrote: post #68

flylikeabanana wrote: post #13

I find it really odd that the OP is staring down the barrel of an RSI that's going to inexorably lock them (presumably) out of their career and passion, but the learning curve for a proper ergonomic keyboard seemed to high. I was up to an acceptable 40WPM on the Ergodox a week after switching, and his complaints about " the Cherry MX" switches fall a little flat since there's about a dozen different kinds, all with d…

There's absolutely zero clinical/valid evidence that Cherry MX switches do a shred of anything for RSI. It's all hype. There's nothing medical behind any of it. I find the extra key travel of those switches fatigues my fingers/arms far more and makes me feel far more like I'm going to have RSI. I did have full blown RSI, and ditching mechanical keyboards was a key part of getting past it. Now that's just my anecdote,…

One benefit with mechanical keys though is that there's a massive variety of types, so you can easily find something that works for you. You can get short-travel (i.e. Kailh speed series), soft bottom-outs via something like the Boba series or by using o-rings, high resistance or low resistance with varying spring weights, tactile vs clicky vs linear for feedback.

With a membrane keyboard you have zero choice beyond moving from one brand/model of keyboard to another, but with a hot-swappable keyboard you can try multiple switches until you find one that suits you and doesn't aggravate any existing RSI or trigger new forms of RSI.

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#169

Post by TacticalCoder » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

I've thinking about trying this for a very long time, but never did so. My keyboard "mechanical switch" of choice is Trope. To me there isn't a single other switch that comes even close (and I've got lots of keyboards). And among the Topre keyboards, my favorite is the HHKB Pro JP (japanese layout)... But it's not split (I don't care if it's two parts or one part: to me "split" means both halves are at an angle).

So I've been thinking about using not one but two HHKB Pro JP, as in TFA. I should really just try it.

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#170

Post by yetanothermonk » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

I don't game but I've found Kinesis split keyboard (https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/) + vertical mouse cured my wrist/forearm pain. That plus a desk at 27" instead of a "normal" 32" are one time ergonomic expenses that are absolute no-brainers for programmers.

It took a lot of trial and error to find the setup that worked for me. I think the above is the right 80/20 solution. Worth a shot and hope it ends up helping someone. FWIW, the Kinesis keyboard has a nice tilt that corresponds with the vertical mouse tilt.