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2006: Dwarf Fortress

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Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#61

Post by jameshart »

GLGirty wrote: post #25
roenxi wrote: post #2

It is important, when contemplating Dwarf Fortress, to realise a couple of things. Firstly, and most obviously, the game is clearly some sort of work of art. The exact nature of the art is a bit difficult to pin down - certainly isn't an exercise in graphics and the plot is inconsistent between playthroughs - but nevertheless. The second thing to observe is it appears to be a life's work. A lifetime has not actually…

Do you think software is a medium that can create one-person (or small team) masterworks in any form but games? Candidates that come to my mind are lisp, unix, and visicalc. I wonder if the nature of software means that craft code is destined to fossilize. > If humanity survives to 2121, there are going to be some amazing games. My great grandkids can enjoy that if they survive antibiotic resistant microbes and the w…

TeX, certainly. Specialized fields have their own little masterworks (Leland Smith’s SCORE perhaps?) - but these are maybe more analogous to the great works of Victorian engineering like the Brooklyn Bridge or the SS Great Britain than they resemble a symphony or a great painting.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#62

Post by marttt »

roenxi wrote: post #2

It is important, when contemplating Dwarf Fortress, to realise a couple of things. Firstly, and most obviously, the game is clearly some sort of work of art. The exact nature of the art is a bit difficult to pin down - certainly isn't an exercise in graphics and the plot is inconsistent between playthroughs - but nevertheless. The second thing to observe is it appears to be a life's work. A lifetime has not actually…

> If humanity survives to 2121, there are going to be some amazing games.

This would make a great Ask HN: which computer games of today might be remembered in 100 years? Or: which genres have the best chances for a 100+ year lifespan.

I think I realized just now that we really do live in a time where games as cultural artefacts are stepping into the shoes of books. Wow.

I've never been much of a gamer, but, uh, who knows, maybe my grand-grand-whatever-children of 2100 would also enjoy the first parts of Leisure Suit Larry? [1] It did tackle universal human problems, after all.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leisure_Suit_Larry_in_the_Land...

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#63

Post by waynesonfire »

imdsm wrote: post #24
sshagent wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nicely put. DF is simply the best game I've ever played, and I've been hooked by many from many genres. The stories told within are insane. I only play it every couple of years when the desire catches me, yet still patreon to DF. This is what games should be. Obviously an insane barrier of entry, took me a few goes to 'get it' and even now i barely get it despite playing many varingly 'fun' forts. I watched many yout…

I've played since 2006 and while I don't find much time these days, I return to it every few years to scratch an itch. I played a lot of ADOM in the old days, and naturally jumped onto DF when it appeared. With tilesets, things became easier, and then with Dwarf Therapist, easier too. Then we got packs like the "Lazy Newb" pack, and with Steam coming too, it'll become even more accessible to folks. The depth of what…

so factorio, rimworld, etc..

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#64

Post by standardUser »

laumars wrote: post #54
standardUser wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no stranger to involved and complicated games (Crusader Kings, Kerbal Space Program, as examples) but the Dwarf Fortress interface appeared to me to be some sort of elaborate ruse designed to test my patience, or to simply mock me. I'm glad the folks who have the patience to navigate those menus and decipher those "graphics" have rewarding experiences, but I'll wait for the Steam version with actual graphics, and…

There’s plenty of graphical versions of DF. You’re not stuck with the console version if you dont like it. I’m fact there is a graphical version on Steam already

I tried some of those, but in the end it was the interface that caused me to quit. As for Steam, that version is not released yet: https://store.steampowered.com/app/975370/Dwarf_Fortress/

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#65

Post by MetallicCloud »

samvher wrote: post #35
triceratops wrote: post #33

I've tried playing DF a couple of times but gave up because it's too hard. Even though I couldn't "get" it, I'm glad it exists.

I've tried playing DF a couple of times but gave up because I couldn't figure out the install/launch process. One day I will persevere.

The easiest way is to get a Lazy Newb Pack https://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Utility:Lazy_New...

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#66

Post by db48x »

samvher wrote: post #35
triceratops wrote: post #33

I've tried playing DF a couple of times but gave up because it's too hard. Even though I couldn't "get" it, I'm glad it exists.

I've tried playing DF a couple of times but gave up because I couldn't figure out the install/launch process. One day I will persevere.

Really? You just unzip the thing somewhere, then run the program. No install necessary.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#67

Post by ZetaZero »

db48x wrote: post #60
ZetaZero wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is not a dig on guides, its instead an appreciation for what the game taught me - the idea that losing could be fun. I disagree. Losing a game because of undocumented behavior or bugs has never been fun for me. Sid Meier - "A game is a series of interesting choices."

That’s not what “losing is fun” really means. Winning and losing in Dwarf Fortress is not like most other games. In most games, having everyone in your fortress die would be a loss, it wouldn’t be much fun, and you would have to start the level over. In Dwarf Fortress, by contrast, this can be counted as a win as long as there was a good story to it, or if you learned something new about the game. I’ll give you an ex…

> I’ll give you an example of a fort that I lost....

Sure, this is a great example of "Losing is Fun".

Here is my example. Note this is 10+ years ago, so some of the details are hazy, and this was my first or second fortress. I carve out an area for an underground farm, then designate the area for Farming. Something about "needing irrigated farmland" first, but the game doesn't tell me how I can issue an irrigation command.

Apparently, after checking the Wiki, the dwarfs won't irrigate squares they stand in. I need to carve out a room above my farm, designate a pond, task dwarfs to fill the pond, then channel water down to my farm. By the time I figured all this out, my dwarfs all starved.

Losing several times because I didn't read the wiki was not fun. I never got the chance to build a fort, where an "interesting story" had a chance to take place. To get to that point, I felt I would have to put some 30+ hours into the game just to learn the basic undocumented steps needed to build a functioning fort. There was too much "work" to get to the potential fun parts.

The steep learning curve, the terribly inconsistent UI, and Toady's lack of desire to do anything to improve these issues, pushed me to spend my fun time elsewhere. I plan on looking at the Steam release to see if anything has changed.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#68

Post by munk-a »

standardUser wrote: post #46
sshagent wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nicely put. DF is simply the best game I've ever played, and I've been hooked by many from many genres. The stories told within are insane. I only play it every couple of years when the desire catches me, yet still patreon to DF. This is what games should be. Obviously an insane barrier of entry, took me a few goes to 'get it' and even now i barely get it despite playing many varingly 'fun' forts. I watched many yout…

I'm no stranger to involved and complicated games (Crusader Kings, Kerbal Space Program, as examples) but the Dwarf Fortress interface appeared to me to be some sort of elaborate ruse designed to test my patience, or to simply mock me. I'm glad the folks who have the patience to navigate those menus and decipher those "graphics" have rewarding experiences, but I'll wait for the Steam version with actual graphics, and…

I think to understand the UI you've got to have grown up with vim or emacs where offering a wide range of features via rather shallow keyboard interactions to enable power users. I wouldn't say that nested menu driven interactions are entirely suitable - and I think that the first time you go through it helps immensely to have a tutorial open that will lead you through some basic things (designate chopping some trees for lumber - for instance). I also think that people who have been with it longer have a leg up here since the UI has slowly accumulated more complexity over time - the military interface and trade interfaces in particular are pretty hard to grok.

That all said - I would say that DF doesn't fall into a trap very common in modern games: it never lies to you in the UI for simplicity, it is clear about what it's doing and most of the errors are relatively clear to comprehend. Some of these have been accumulated over time (i.e. damp/warm stone warnings) but generally when a feature is added that feature gets consistently signaled in all the UI portions that need it and information is sanely repeated. A good example is lava-safe metals which are pretty clearly highlighted in areas where it might be relevant (i.e. building a floodgate and switch mechanisms).

I've frequently heard talk that cell-shading adds artistic flair or bloom allows better tooling around creating bright scenes - but the immensely obvious and clear style that DF achieves brings precisely what it needs to bring to the table. Ascii graphics make that game clearly legible while still allowing the imagination to roam and beautiful structures to be created - making a multi-z-level dining hall with balconies adding extra floor space around the roaring fire in the middle of the hall with dwarves dancing merrily around it... that is quite possible in DF - it's just not going to look like a triple-A game.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#69

Post by intended »

ZetaZero wrote: post #40
intended wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kinda liked the earlier version of the game, before guides and tools made it easier to get into. This is not a dig on guides, its instead an appreciation for what the game taught me - the idea that losing could be fun. Before that I would always play in a manner that guaranteed success, re-loading if something went wrong. With DF it was either something going spectacularly wrong, or utter boredom when I decided to…

> This is not a dig on guides, its instead an appreciation for what the game taught me - the idea that losing could be fun. I disagree. Losing a game because of undocumented behavior or bugs has never been fun for me. Sid Meier - "A game is a series of interesting choices."

Well Sid Meier is right, and the term interesting is broader than just simply knowing the state of the board at all times.

DF proved it for me. Essentially there’s a meta pattern in human behavior to avoid uncertainty. This robs you of the fun that can be had by embracing chance and risk.

Plus the “bug” I encountered was spawning near a magma vent and a yellow “i” chucking a fire ball at my stockpile.

If DF fulfills it’s goals, I doubt anyone can predict all the interactions.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#70

Post by ranger207 »

gowld wrote: post #47

Is there a self-playing/idle mode in Dwarf Fortress? Where you set some initial conditions and then watch the world evolve without having to take care of it?

I saw this post on reddit[0] the other day which uses something called df-ai[1]

[0] https://old.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/pqp9p2/dwarf... [1] https://github.com/BenLubar/df-ai

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