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Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

symboliclogic.io

71–80 of 297 posts

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#71

> I tried a few of those Kinesis split keyboards. Too squishy for me. Not far enough apart. The CherryMX Kinesis split keyboard was is too clickey for calls and screenshares. Muscle memory made it difficult to switch. This is a really cool hack, and I’m happy that the author found a solution for their pain that works for them, but this bit confused me. Kinesis are keyboards with separated key clusters, but not split…

Note, the Kinesis Advantage is the one with "cups" that have keys in them in single keyboard.

The Kinesis Freestyle is split into two halves and unlike the Ergodex or similar it's just a standard keyboard layout which makes jumping back and forth between other computers less of a hassle.

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#72

> I tried a few of those Kinesis split keyboards. Too squishy for me. Not far enough apart. The CherryMX Kinesis split keyboard was is too clickey for calls and screenshares. Muscle memory made it difficult to switch. This is a really cool hack, and I’m happy that the author found a solution for their pain that works for them, but this bit confused me. Kinesis are keyboards with separated key clusters, but not split…

Kinesis also makes split keyboards. Since they are talking about mushy keys they are clearly talking about the Kinesis Freestyle with membrane keys.

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#73
Based on my own experience, I don't think any of this is necessary.

Context: Back about twenty years ago; startup; spending 18 hours a day, 7 days a week for about 2 years almost full time in front of the computer coding, electronics design, 3D CAD, etc.

I developed pain and soreness on both wrists. Inflammation too. They were warm to the touch. I resorted to things like coding with ice packs on my wrists. It sucked.

I also had context from work in another industry where I knew people who had surgery on their wrists due to the pain and inflammation. Not fun at all. And, no, it did not solve the problem.

Other than repetitive motion, the root cause is bad ergonomics. Splitting the keyboard or using two keyboards does not solve the problem.

You need four things:

1- A low actuation effort keyboard

2- A trackball --mice are horrible, they require far more motion and effort than the task demands

3- A good adjustable chair (Aeron is what I use) with adjustable arm rests

4- An ergonomic desk, not an office desk

#4 is where I went to work and designed my own [0] [1]. The other factors are somewhat subjective and require you to experiment until you find what you like.

The effect was almost instantaneous. You setup your chair to match the arm rest height to that of the wrist support bar on the desk. And you relax. You have to learn to relax. You hand naturally droops into the cavity where the keyboard and trackball are. The objective is minimal to no attitude (orientation) support tension on the upper tendons. When you eliminate this tension, the problem is gone.

The trackball makes it so you don't have to move all over the place to use the GUI. This is particularly true of a multimonitor or large monitor setup. Sorry to say this --because I know there are people who like them-- mice are horrible. The same is true of touch pads. Great for low cost integration into thin laptops, horrible for ergonomics. I use a trackball on my laptops as well.

If this worked for me (18 hours/day, 7 days a week, 2 years) it has to work for anyone doing less than that.

Normal office desks are horrible. They are a relic of the days when people wrote on paper by hand. A modern ergonomic desk designed for extended work on computers cannot have a single flat surface at 29 inches (74 cm) of height. That's ridiculous. The ergonomics of using a keyboard and mouse/trackball on such a surface are 100% wrong.

Measure the height from your elbow to the floor while relaxed on your chair. Femur bone should be horizontal, feet comfortably touching the ground, spine is comfortably vertical (not slouching), shoulders relaxed, forearm bent at 90 degrees (horizontal). Is that 29 inches? Nope. It's probably in the 25 to 26 inch range (63.5 to 66 cm). Guess the height of the keyboard shelf on my custom desk? The wrist support bar is about 1.5 inches (4 cm) high, sanded to about 600 grit and stained with Tung oil. It's reasonably friction free, not sticky or perspiration-inducing. The edges are rounded to, if I remember correctly, a 1/2 inch (1.3 cm) radius).

[0] https://i.imgur.com/S8gOPh7.jpg [1] https://i.imgur.com/PoKDNOk.jpg

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#74
They're out of style, but keyboard trays that extend out from the desk let you get the keyboard lower and closer to you for better shoulder and arm positioning. You don't need a split unless you're zombie-arm reaching for a keyboard far away on top of your desk.

Personally, my arms are very long so I actually type with my keyboards directly on my lap. My upper arms hang straight down, my shoulders completely neutral.

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#75
post #68

I find it really odd that the OP is staring down the barrel of an RSI that's going to inexorably lock them (presumably) out of their career and passion, but the learning curve for a proper ergonomic keyboard seemed to high. I was up to an acceptable 40WPM on the Ergodox a week after switching, and his complaints about " the Cherry MX" switches fall a little flat since there's about a dozen different kinds, all with d…

There's absolutely zero clinical/valid evidence that Cherry MX switches do a shred of anything for RSI. It's all hype. There's nothing medical behind any of it. I find the extra key travel of those switches fatigues my fingers/arms far more and makes me feel far more like I'm going to have RSI. I did have full blown RSI, and ditching mechanical keyboards was a key part of getting past it. Now that's just my anecdote,…

> I find the extra key travel of those switches fatigues my fingers/arms far more and makes me feel far more like I'm going to have RSI.

I just can't bear the thought of using mechanical keyboard where I have to lift my fingers too much to be able to move them and press another key. For me, the less I need to move my fingers up/down, and the less pressure I have to apply, the better - as in, hurts way less

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#76

Or just use a split keyboard, there are some dozen available nowadays: https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards Personally, I'm using a Dygma Raise, after testing the Ergodox for a while. And the Dygma is really mostly perfect IMHO. I would prefer it to have an ortholinear layout, and an additional row with F-Keys (layers can be cumbersome when hands are not at homerow-position). But the build-quality and…

Absolutely love my Dygma Raise. Link for anyone interested: https://dygma.com/

My only gripe with it is that I wish the wrist pads were detachable - not because of the quality (which is good), but because I use a keyboard tray and they're a little bit too big for the amount of space I have. Also agree that an F-row would be nice, though I've gotten used to layer shifting for extra keys. I even have a layer that puts the letters on the right side of the keyboard onto the left side, so when I need to click around a lot while typing I can type using my left hand only and leave my right hand on my mouse.

The thumb cluster is perfect and the software does everything I need it to do. Customer support is great. And with their silent linear switch option (Kailh Silent Pinks), typing is very quiet and suitable for even an open office. No problems typing at full speed on it either since it's not an ortholinear layout, I was hitting my usual WPM (~135) the day I got it.

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#77
post #15

Either this person has incredibly broad shoulders or they have their arms splayed out or something. I can't imagine the 20 inches of separation available on the Kinesis Freestyle is "Not far enough apart" to "keep the shoulders in a natural, pulled-back position" for all but the most extreme outliers. I have a Kinesis keyboard and the only possible complaint I have is no numpad.

If you were working with a PT they want you sitting so far upright with your shoulders pulled so far back you might not be able to even reach the keyboard.

We're all so used to the slouch it's hard to grasp.

I can't sit back in my chair at all and both keep my shoulders back AND reach the keyboard.

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#78
post #68

I find it really odd that the OP is staring down the barrel of an RSI that's going to inexorably lock them (presumably) out of their career and passion, but the learning curve for a proper ergonomic keyboard seemed to high. I was up to an acceptable 40WPM on the Ergodox a week after switching, and his complaints about " the Cherry MX" switches fall a little flat since there's about a dozen different kinds, all with d…

There's absolutely zero clinical/valid evidence that Cherry MX switches do a shred of anything for RSI. It's all hype. There's nothing medical behind any of it. I find the extra key travel of those switches fatigues my fingers/arms far more and makes me feel far more like I'm going to have RSI. I did have full blown RSI, and ditching mechanical keyboards was a key part of getting past it. Now that's just my anecdote,…

I second (or third now) that travel on typical mechanical switches is anecdotally sub-optimal for my RSI. Membrane dome switches with a lot of travel are worse, but membrane dome switches with almost no travel seem to be better.

Ironically the worse keyboard I've used for it also happened to be an "ergonomic" keyboard (from the 90s, or maybe early 2000s) with keys tilted outwards. I think partially because of the positioning, and partially because it had membrane switches with a lot of travel.

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#79
post #68

I find it really odd that the OP is staring down the barrel of an RSI that's going to inexorably lock them (presumably) out of their career and passion, but the learning curve for a proper ergonomic keyboard seemed to high. I was up to an acceptable 40WPM on the Ergodox a week after switching, and his complaints about " the Cherry MX" switches fall a little flat since there's about a dozen different kinds, all with d…

There's absolutely zero clinical/valid evidence that Cherry MX switches do a shred of anything for RSI. It's all hype. There's nothing medical behind any of it. I find the extra key travel of those switches fatigues my fingers/arms far more and makes me feel far more like I'm going to have RSI. I did have full blown RSI, and ditching mechanical keyboards was a key part of getting past it. Now that's just my anecdote,…

[deleted]

Re: Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

#80
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's absolutely zero clinical/valid evidence that Cherry MX switches do a shred of anything for RSI. It's all hype. There's nothing medical behind any of it. I find the extra key travel of those switches fatigues my fingers/arms far more and makes me feel far more like I'm going to have RSI. I did have full blown RSI, and ditching mechanical keyboards was a key part of getting past it. Now that's just my anecdote,…

> I find the extra key travel of those switches fatigues my fingers/arms far more and makes me feel far more like I'm going to have RSI. I just can't bear the thought of using mechanical keyboard where I have to lift my fingers too much to be able to move them and press another key. For me, the less I need to move my fingers up/down, and the less pressure I have to apply, the better - as in, hurts way less

My injury was multi-factor. It started with a cycling injury. Medication taken from the cycling injury was partially a cause of the RSI coming on. It was also just a really stressful time with a lot of work.

But I had been in the field for ~15 years with no significant RSI, and those injuries and RSI weren't too long after I had switched to mechanical keyboards. I struggled for a few years. There's so much momentum behind mechanical switches it was really hard for me to convince myself they could be the problem, but I never got rid of it till I stopped using them.

I do think key travel is part of it. Playing piano is/was 10x worse than computer keyboards, even though nice piano actions have a softer "bounce" than any computer keyboard. The piano keyboard has huge travel. Meanwhile playing guitar the fretboard has absolutely zero give or cushioning, but the finger travel is extremely small, and it's never given me an issue. (I gave up piano to reduce chances of having an RSI again.)

There's no real proof/study of travel vs bounce anyway with respect to fatigue and injury.

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