Live data from Hacker News

2006: Dwarf Fortress

if50.substack.com

51–60 of 99 posts

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nicely put. DF is simply the best game I've ever played, and I've been hooked by many from many genres. The stories told within are insane. I only play it every couple of years when the desire catches me, yet still patreon to DF. This is what games should be. Obviously an insane barrier of entry, took me a few goes to 'get it' and even now i barely get it despite playing many varingly 'fun' forts. I watched many yout…

I'm no stranger to involved and complicated games (Crusader Kings, Kerbal Space Program, as examples) but the Dwarf Fortress interface appeared to me to be some sort of elaborate ruse designed to test my patience, or to simply mock me. I'm glad the folks who have the patience to navigate those menus and decipher those "graphics" have rewarding experiences, but I'll wait for the Steam version with actual graphics, and…

There are mods and external tools that add normal graphics (top-down, isometric, even full 3d) and simplify micromanagement. It's not that bad if you use Lazy Newb Pack that has DF and most of these utils preconfigured.

But yes, it isn't very accessible.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kinda liked the earlier version of the game, before guides and tools made it easier to get into. This is not a dig on guides, its instead an appreciation for what the game taught me - the idea that losing could be fun. Before that I would always play in a manner that guaranteed success, re-loading if something went wrong. With DF it was either something going spectacularly wrong, or utter boredom when I decided to…

> This is not a dig on guides, its instead an appreciation for what the game taught me - the idea that losing could be fun. I disagree. Losing a game because of undocumented behavior or bugs has never been fun for me. Sid Meier - "A game is a series of interesting choices."

Typically in DF, you lose because of a hilarious sequence of events that overwhelms your fortress' capacity to cope, not through undocumented behaviour and bugs.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#53
post #2

It is important, when contemplating Dwarf Fortress, to realise a couple of things. Firstly, and most obviously, the game is clearly some sort of work of art. The exact nature of the art is a bit difficult to pin down - certainly isn't an exercise in graphics and the plot is inconsistent between playthroughs - but nevertheless. The second thing to observe is it appears to be a life's work. A lifetime has not actually…

It's a rare and beautiful thing indeed. NetHack is the other obvious comparison, but my impression is that development has happened in bursts of activity rather than as a continuous effort.

Some MUDs have this kind of longitudinal development - like the Discworld MUD or LambdaMOO.

And of course the AAA commercial MMORPGs with huge budgets and cattle users that get milked $14.99/month. Though I suspect those are unsustainable in the long run.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nicely put. DF is simply the best game I've ever played, and I've been hooked by many from many genres. The stories told within are insane. I only play it every couple of years when the desire catches me, yet still patreon to DF. This is what games should be. Obviously an insane barrier of entry, took me a few goes to 'get it' and even now i barely get it despite playing many varingly 'fun' forts. I watched many yout…

I'm no stranger to involved and complicated games (Crusader Kings, Kerbal Space Program, as examples) but the Dwarf Fortress interface appeared to me to be some sort of elaborate ruse designed to test my patience, or to simply mock me. I'm glad the folks who have the patience to navigate those menus and decipher those "graphics" have rewarding experiences, but I'll wait for the Steam version with actual graphics, and…

There’s plenty of graphical versions of DF. You’re not stuck with the console version if you dont like it. I’m fact there is a graphical version on Steam already

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#55
post #12

> The heights to which that complexity has now reached are evidenced by two famous bugs: one involved too low a melting point for the fat layer of dwarven skin, and the other saw cats getting wildly drunk from licking their paws after walking over tavern floors sticky with spilled beer. These are the ones that always get mentioned, but over the game's whole history there are too many great bugs to name. One infamous…

don't know how it was fixed in DF, however that feels like a problem that was "solved" in DND; if you try and move via a medium for which you don't have a natural speed, you make a check - if you have a natural speed you don't need to make the check. Thus characters don't need to make "walking" checks, but they do have to make "climb" checks. Similarly fish have a swim speed, so they never have to make swim checks. In the event that your ability is impeded in some way (e.g. grease on a ladder) then you might have to make a check against your (normally not-tested) skill, which would be high for your natural movement modes.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#56
post #47

Is there a self-playing/idle mode in Dwarf Fortress? Where you set some initial conditions and then watch the world evolve without having to take care of it?

There isn't exactly any truly "self playing" mode, but you can always set up a fortress and then just see how long it runs before falling apart. The dwarves all have their own needs that they'll try to deal with on their own, and you can assign standing orders for things like farms and food production, as well as guard schedules and patrol routes for basic defenses.

There's also the worldgen process which is probably the closest, but doesn't really let you inspect anything while it's happening. The "legends" gamemode lets you explore the history of the world after it's been established, and there's some 3rd party tools to make exploring the maps and timelines a little easier.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is not a dig on guides, its instead an appreciation for what the game taught me - the idea that losing could be fun. I disagree. Losing a game because of undocumented behavior or bugs has never been fun for me. Sid Meier - "A game is a series of interesting choices."

Typically in DF, you lose because of a hilarious sequence of events that overwhelms your fortress' capacity to cope, not through undocumented behaviour and bugs.

> Typically in DF, you lose because of a hilarious sequence of events that overwhelms your fortress' capacity to cope, not through undocumented behaviour and bugs.

You also never really lose. It's always possible to reclaim an old fortress -- losing doesn't cause existence failure, it causes a nonfunctional fortress.

If you abandon/retire instead of having everyone die, you may be able to find it in Adventure mode and meet some of your dwarves. Or you can kill the forgotten beast that destroyed it, then retire the adventurer and send in a reclamation party...

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#58

There are a few games inspired in Dwarf Fortress, such as Gnomeria and Rimworld, for audiences that are a more casual. Dwarf Fortress is hard to master.

It's funny because I also feel like Rimworld is a really difficult game to play, but it's a blast once you get the hang of it.

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#59
post #12

> The heights to which that complexity has now reached are evidenced by two famous bugs: one involved too low a melting point for the fat layer of dwarven skin, and the other saw cats getting wildly drunk from licking their paws after walking over tavern floors sticky with spilled beer. These are the ones that always get mentioned, but over the game's whole history there are too many great bugs to name. One infamous…

don't know how it was fixed in DF, however that feels like a problem that was "solved" in DND; if you try and move via a medium for which you don't have a natural speed, you make a check - if you have a natural speed you don't need to make the check. Thus characters don't need to make "walking" checks, but they do have to make "climb" checks. Similarly fish have a swim speed, so they never have to make swim checks. I…

This is not in 5E, right?

Re: 2006: Dwarf Fortress

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kinda liked the earlier version of the game, before guides and tools made it easier to get into. This is not a dig on guides, its instead an appreciation for what the game taught me - the idea that losing could be fun. Before that I would always play in a manner that guaranteed success, re-loading if something went wrong. With DF it was either something going spectacularly wrong, or utter boredom when I decided to…

> This is not a dig on guides, its instead an appreciation for what the game taught me - the idea that losing could be fun. I disagree. Losing a game because of undocumented behavior or bugs has never been fun for me. Sid Meier - "A game is a series of interesting choices."

That’s not what “losing is fun” really means. Winning and losing in Dwarf Fortress is not like most other games. In most games, having everyone in your fortress die would be a loss, it wouldn’t be much fun, and you would have to start the level over. In Dwarf Fortress, by contrast, this can be counted as a win as long as there was a good story to it, or if you learned something new about the game.

I’ll give you an example of a fort that I lost. I had dug down into one of the cavern layers beneath the world and set up shop. I started walling off a good–sized area down there, making it safe from fliers and swimmers. I built walls across a lake that would keep them out but still let in fresh water, and hopefully cave fish. At the edge of the lake next to a courtyard surrounded by stalagmites I built a simple little well house to supply the fortress should the booze ever run out.

Naturally, all this activity attracted attention, and forgotten beasts attacked the fort. I had a rag–tag militia with whatever weapons I happened to have on hand and some armor go out and attack the first one just outside the walls, not far from the well house. They fought hard, and managed to take down the beast with only a few casualties, who were soon carried back to the hospital.

I then directed my butcher to carve up the carcass; this thing was huge and it would likely feed the entire fort for six months or more. He duly dragged the carcass past the well house, across the courtyard, into the stairwell, and up a few levels to the main body of the fortress.

All was going well a few months later when I noticed the blood.

There was blood in the hallways, and blood in the courtyard, and blood in the well house. There were dwarves running around cleaning the blood, but it never seemed to go away for long. You would expect there to be some blood after the fight, and there was. But even dragging the carcass of a huge forgotten beast wouldn’t leave a trail of blood down a hallway; in Dwarf Fortress a dead creature can no longer bleed. Even the meat you get from it doesn’t have blood in it any more. So where was it all coming from?

I inspected some bloody areas, and found that it was dwarf blood. Indeed, Dwarf Fortress keeps track of this because the details matter; for every contaminant that comes from a creature it knows _which_ creature it came from. It wasn’t just dwarf blood, it was blood from specific dwarves! I started looking through my dwarves to find the ones that were bleeding.

All of them had rotten feet.

The skin, fat, and muscle layers of their feet were all rotting. Everywhere they walked they were leaving bloody footprints and smears of blood. They would go to the well house and try to clean themselves. They would try to clean the floors, and get it on themselves again, and on the clean floors. Any dwarf that got that blood on their skin was getting some kind of infection (or “syndrome” as the game calls them) that caused their flesh to rot. Animals and pets had gotten it too. Cats follow their dwarves around, so they were stepping in the same pools of blood and had rotten flesh on their paws.

And that’s when I remembered, the description of the forgotten beast said that it had “poisoned blood”. Forgotten beasts are randomly generated. The game picks a body plan from all the creatures it knows about, randomly changes details such as material, size, and color, adds interesting features, and then sets them loose in the world to harass your fortresses. Poisoned blood is an especially interesting feature because the poison itself is randomized. The game generates a suite of randomized syndromes (on top of the non–randomized syndromes used by various venomous creatures, etc), then uses those syndromes in various nasty ways throughout the game. This syndrome apparently caused flesh to rot. When the forgotten beast bled from its wounds during the fight, it got on the ground and on the armor of the fighters. From there it spread, until it was everywhere.

I might have forgotten that beast’s randomly–generated name, but I’ll never forget the story. Thus I won, even though the fortress was lost.

In fact, the fun doesn’t necessarily stop when you lose a fortress, because you can always start another fortress in the same world. Since it’s the same world, it has the same threats. In particular, it has the same syndromes. There’s a good chance that any fortress in that world would see this kind of threat again, even if that one forgotten beast was dead. Hopefully I would have been able to deal with it better.

Post reply on HN