EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones • Hacker News Board

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#271

Post by maccard » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 12:59 PM UTC

throw0101a wrote: post #222

maccard wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In absolute terms it's nothing though. An average household uses 4000 kWh of electricity in the UK (less than half of the average us household), so saving the 5kWh on 4 phones is a 0.5% saving, which is roughly equivalent to running your home boiler for 10 minutes per year. Turning off your thermostat for one evening would have the equivalent impact of not using a wireless charger for a century.

> In absolute terms it's nothing though. Symbols can hold power though.

Do we not have enough symbols? Plastic bags, domestic recycling, plastic straws are all strong "symbols" and yet we're still fighting about a couple of kWh rather than making any meaningful change.

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#272

Post by concinds » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 1:00 PM UTC

Sadly, this doesn't seem like it'll ban Apple from removing the port from iPhones:

> - harmonise the charging interface for mobile phones and similar categories or classes of radio equipment (tablets, digital cameras, headphones and headsets, handheld videogame consoles and portable speakers) that are recharged via a wired charging

The EU needs to get in front of this, because forcing all iPhone users to use a bigger, heavier charging puck, waste 50% more electricity, and be unable to transfer files quickly to or from the iPhone, seems utterly unacceptable to me.

https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/46755/attachments/3/...

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#273

Post by Ginden » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 1:01 PM UTC

dexen wrote: post #206

Ginden wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This will stifle innovation needlessly Do we have any room left for innovation in charging ports? USB-C provides 24 pins, up to 240W Power Delivery (negotiable), up to 40 Gbit/s, ability to negotiate alternate modes (so manufacturer can implement new proprietary protocol if they want/need to and put basically anything over those 24 pins).

>Do we have any room left for innovation in charging ports? Absolutely! The sheer amount of optional features in USB-C cables makes charging - in particular fast charging, and charging tablet/laptop sized devices - a hit-or-miss game. USB-C's design was made to balance of costs with regards to client device complexity: 12 pins in total, three twisted pair signalling pathways, of which two are optional. All this is be…

> Alternatively, once optical interconnect becomes cheap enough, we could return to that technology - two power pins & one optical connector.

Why would we need to? Smartphones don't even use USB 3.0, because smartphone can't realistically saturate 480 Mbit/s of USB 2.0. Of course, power of smartphones will increase over time, but, assuming current speed of progress in technology, we won't exceed USB4 speeds (40Gbit/s) before 2040.

> A phone would also benefit from a contact connector similar to Apple's magsafes (attached via magnets) rather than insertion plug

Magnetic cables already exist and aren't really popular.

> savings on internal space

USB-C port is 8.4mm2.6mm6.65mm = 145mm^3 = 0.000145L. Volumetric density of modern batteries is around 210 Watt-hours/liter, so, with saved space, you can store 0.03 Wh. It's 6 mAh at 5V.

Though, connectors based on magnetic pins are easier to waterproof (but it's still possible with USB-C).

> That we are stuck with plugs and sockets is largely artifact of requirements for uses other than charging, including pendrives & other USB dongles.

These things aren't going anywhere.

> Lastly, a clear directionality hint to charging cables would be good: if you connect a phone to a tablet, which should charge which?

None should charge other by default. User should be able to decide directionality of charging.

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#274

Post by foepys » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 1:13 PM UTC

southerntofu wrote: post #218

srg0 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The valuable part of the charger and the cable is not actually plastic. The point is that replaced chargers account for ~ 1_000_000 kg of e-waste per year. Cable is 30% copper, 24% stainless steel, 16% other non-plastic materials. EPS is 13% copper and copper alloys, 7% aluminium, 6% steel, 37% other non-plastic components. According to EU studies, 31% of the EPS and cables are incorrectly disposed. https://op.europa…

Entirely agree with your point. However, i would point out that there's many other sources of waste that can be easily avoided: - food waste and related food wrapping waste - planned obsolescence (TVs, cars, washing machines, and just about every product out there) - car-oriented architecture in the cities, where public transportation is an afterthought - energy waste due to personal infrastructure/tooling (cooking/w…

The EU is also tackling all those points you mentioned. Many single-use plastics are already banned in the EU, the EU wants smartphone manufacturers to support their hardware for at least 5 years, many EU members give out incentives to improve house insulation, EV will become the norm in a few years and energy standard get stricter every few years.

It's not like the whole EU legislative body is now pushing with all their might to ban phone chargers, it's just a single working group of many.

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#275

Post by PragmaticPulp » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

The article focuses on forcing USB-C ports (popular), but the proposal also unbundles chargers from products like cell phones (unpopular).

Apple and several other vendors already unbundled chargers from their boxes with mixed reception. Will be interesting to see how this proposal is received when people realize it means they’ll be purchasing chargers separately.

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#276

Post by reeealloc » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #275

The article focuses on forcing USB-C ports (popular), but the proposal also unbundles chargers from products like cell phones (unpopular). Apple and several other vendors already unbundled chargers from their boxes with mixed reception. Will be interesting to see how this proposal is received when people realize it means they’ll be purchasing chargers separately.

Presumably unbundled chargers will be fine with USB-C on everything. It's not proprietary like Apple's chargers and easy to find.

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#277

Post by Invictus0 » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #275

The article focuses on forcing USB-C ports (popular), but the proposal also unbundles chargers from products like cell phones (unpopular). Apple and several other vendors already unbundled chargers from their boxes with mixed reception. Will be interesting to see how this proposal is received when people realize it means they’ll be purchasing chargers separately.

Clearly these lawmakers don't understand that USBC cables are not readily interchangeable from one device to another. I don't even blame them, the USB foundation made the mother of all marketing blunders with this standard.

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#278

Post by walterbell » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 1:18 PM UTC

They need to mandate the presence of a physical cable, otherwise Apple will drop the port and move to wireless charging. Wired cable remains important for high-quality audio and secure data transfers. Both WiFi and Bluetooth have a long and storied history of vulnerabilities.

While they are at it, can we please have a dedicated physical cable port for audio? It doesn't have to be TRRS 3.5mm, but it must be possible to have a wired audio/mike connection that is separate from wired power, without power-hungry dongles. e.g. an entire ecosystem of 3rd party audio devices was sidelined by the removal of headphone jacks.

Now that everyone who wants a Bluetooth headset has one, can we go back to the pre-Beats era of optional, high-quality wired audio? It can be restricted to Pro devices, if necessary.

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#279

Post by diffeomorphism » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 1:18 PM UTC

Invictus0 wrote: post #277

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #275

The article focuses on forcing USB-C ports (popular), but the proposal also unbundles chargers from products like cell phones (unpopular). Apple and several other vendors already unbundled chargers from their boxes with mixed reception. Will be interesting to see how this proposal is received when people realize it means they’ll be purchasing chargers separately.

Clearly these lawmakers don't understand that USBC cables are not readily interchangeable from one device to another. I don't even blame them, the USB foundation made the mother of all marketing blunders with this standard.

For charging? They pretty much are.

For everything else? Maybe with somewhat reduced speed/features but good enough.

Re: EU plans to force OEMs to use a common charger for all phones

#280

Post by ethbr0 » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 1:19 PM UTC

From the announcement https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_... (linked in article)

> Today, the Commission is proposing:

> A harmonised charging port for electronic devices: USB-C will be the common port.

> Harmonised fast charging technology will help prevent that different producers unjustifiably limit the charging speed and will help to ensure that charging speed is the same when using any compatible charger for a device.

> Unbundling the sale of a charger from the sale of the electronic device: consumers will be able to purchase a new electronic device without a new charger.

> Improved information for consumers: producers will need to provide relevant information about charging performance, including information on the power required by the device and if it supports fast charging.

There's also a proposed 2 year implementation delay, before it comes into force. And a subsequent rule requiring charger-side USB-C ports, handled through a different regulator.