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London riots / UK riots: verified areas

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Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#91

Post by Mz »

hashbo wrote: post #87
Mz wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though I wouldn't call the 1970's "quite recently", similarly, the US had four deaths of protesters in 1970, known as The Kent State Shootings or Kent State Massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

Depends how old you are mate :-)

I'm 46. I was just shy of my fifth birthday when the Kent State Shootings occurred. Age surveys suggest that people on HN are predominantly in their 20's and 30's. Attitudes about time aren't necessarily age dependent. I find that people from older cultures tend to have a longer view of time than your typical American. I do happen to be American. "Mate" implies you are not.

Peace.

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#93

Post by gcb »

temphn wrote: post #61
SandB0x wrote: post #14

I'm in my flat in NW2 and I can hear police cars going down the Edgware Road. Fucking terrifying. The police can't keep up, according to the news they're showing up hours late to everything and they don't have any water cannons. Bad times. Edit: #riotcleanup tomorrow morning all over town: http://twitter.com/#!/search/riotcleanup

The fundamental problem is that the police are not free to use the force necessary to put down the riot. If rioters knew they would be shot on sight, they would stop rioting. As it is, police are afraid to crack down for fear that they'll be brought up on charges of "police brutality". Ultimately it will only end when the military is called in and can brandish actual firearms. EDIT: Amazed that someone downvoted this…

In most countries i lived (UK not included) the army can only be used for pacific work inside the country.

It's against all countries' constitution I know of to use the army in internal affairs that include use of force.

And I doubt the riots are killing anyone. You probably lost more money for corrupt government office holders than to any riot-smashing-your-precious-things you will face in your life time. so focus your desire to raise arms more effectively, please.

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#94

Post by SkyMarshal »

techiferous wrote: post #71
bokonist wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forty years ago Harvard Professor Edward Banfield wrote a chapter in his book about the riots of the 1960's. From what I can tell, almost everything he wrote applies to these current riots in London. The primary reason that people riot is that rioting is fun. It gives an immense surge of adrenaline and other hormones, it gives the thrill of chaos and action, of the power of mindless destruction. In order for a riot t…

the thrill of chaos and action, of the power of mindless destruction. I find that really hard to relate to, although I do see this in some people. I wonder if these people have ever had the thrill of creation--birthing something beautiful and unique into the world? That's quite a rush, too. Are riots ultimately a symptom of a failure to educate, to guide, to nurture?

Creating is much more difficult than destroying. Creating actually takes preparation, discipline, work, sacrifice, frustration, and the ability to put off till tomorrow the pleasure we want to experience today. In so far as education tempers people with the ability to sustain that process, then yes you're probably right, it is a failure there. Not an easy problem to solve, though.

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#95

Post by geboyr »

jamesbritt wrote: post #83
ottbot wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very frustrating knowing the police can do little to contain or manage the situation, and we're completely at the mercy of rioters as to what will happen next or when it will stop. A group of 30-40 of them went up my street, smashing cars, and started congregating out front, all holding glass bottles -- this just when reports of homes being broken into started coming out. Absolutely horrifying, luckily something…

Isn't anybody there armed? Is it illegal to use a weapon to defend your home?

Apparently most of the police do not carry guns as well. I saw that it was questioned earlier if some of the forces being used to maintain order are now carrying guns, but I don't think there was a definitive answer. The Metropolitan police might(?)

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#96

Post by temphn »

barrkel wrote: post #78
temphn wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental problem is that the police are not free to use the force necessary to put down the riot. If rioters knew they would be shot on sight, they would stop rioting. As it is, police are afraid to crack down for fear that they'll be brought up on charges of "police brutality". Ultimately it will only end when the military is called in and can brandish actual firearms. EDIT: Amazed that someone downvoted this…

Don't bet on it. The group dynamic (deindividuation[1]) behind rioting is exactly the same as the group dynamic used to build armies that are willing to risk their lives on orders. Introducing military on the streets like was done in Northern Ireland[2] is a recipe for decades of pain and division. The military are not police; you don't want that. [1] http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/02/10/deindividuation/ http://en.…

Will link to my response below:

news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2862467

The military quelled the LA Riots, which is the direct comparable. Northern Ireland was a decades long political/military issue, not about lads looting TVs. Not a good comparison.

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#97

Post by techiferous »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #94
techiferous wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the thrill of chaos and action, of the power of mindless destruction. I find that really hard to relate to, although I do see this in some people. I wonder if these people have ever had the thrill of creation--birthing something beautiful and unique into the world? That's quite a rush, too. Are riots ultimately a symptom of a failure to educate, to guide, to nurture?

Creating is much more difficult than destroying. Creating actually takes preparation, discipline, work, sacrifice, frustration, and the ability to put off till tomorrow the pleasure we want to experience today. In so far as education tempers people with the ability to sustain that process, then yes you're probably right, it is a failure there. Not an easy problem to solve, though.

I totally agree with you. Creating is more difficult than destroying. Although part of me thinks that destroying at this level would be very difficult. I mean, these people are ransacking some 89-year-old's small business and looting retail stores. That should feel different than fighting an oppressor. Even though you are pumped up with adrenaline, isn't there some part of you that just knows that you're being part of the problem? That's what I have a difficult time understanding. But does this just show the brokenness of the situation? Do these people feel trapped, without hope, disaffected, like nothing matters?

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#98

Post by willyt »

Mz wrote: post #75
willyt wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, and we've been there before, quite recently actually. See Bloody Sunday on wikipedia. Paratroopers killed 13 people at peaceful demo when they mistakenly thought they had come under fire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)

Though I wouldn't call the 1970's "quite recently", similarly, the US had four deaths of protesters in 1970, known as The Kent State Shootings or Kent State Massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

I suppose I meant 'quite recently' in that I would never have imagined that something like Bloody Sunday could happen in a modern 1st world democracy, until we studied it in Modern History at school. To put it in context, the next most recent military action against UK civilians was the Peterloo massacre in 1819. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#99

Post by thegyppo »

jamesbritt wrote: post #83
ottbot wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very frustrating knowing the police can do little to contain or manage the situation, and we're completely at the mercy of rioters as to what will happen next or when it will stop. A group of 30-40 of them went up my street, smashing cars, and started congregating out front, all holding glass bottles -- this just when reports of homes being broken into started coming out. Absolutely horrifying, luckily something…

Isn't anybody there armed? Is it illegal to use a weapon to defend your home?

Unfortunately English law around intruders in the home is quite vague and very different from the Castle Doctrine laws in the USA

'As the law currently stands, a person in possession can use no more force than they reasonably believe necessary to remove a trespasser from the premises'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_of_property

People have been convicted of using force against intruders in their home. However, a group of angry rioters is somewhat different.

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#100

Post by cincinnatus »

techiferous wrote: post #71
bokonist wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forty years ago Harvard Professor Edward Banfield wrote a chapter in his book about the riots of the 1960's. From what I can tell, almost everything he wrote applies to these current riots in London. The primary reason that people riot is that rioting is fun. It gives an immense surge of adrenaline and other hormones, it gives the thrill of chaos and action, of the power of mindless destruction. In order for a riot t…

the thrill of chaos and action, of the power of mindless destruction. I find that really hard to relate to, although I do see this in some people. I wonder if these people have ever had the thrill of creation--birthing something beautiful and unique into the world? That's quite a rush, too. Are riots ultimately a symptom of a failure to educate, to guide, to nurture?

A person is smart, people are animals...
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