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Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

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Re: Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

#11

Post by 29athrowaway »

Civ 4 was the last true Civ to have a gameplay similar to the the originals.

Civ 5 and 6 introduced unit stacking constraints that completely change the way the game is played.

If WW2 happened in Civ 5 or 6, the Normandy landings would not have been possible because you would not be able to stack large number of units in one tile. Those landings were "a death stack".

But even if every large battle in history could be represented as a "death stack", Civ 5 and 6 players do not like them.

Then, the hex tiles do not create a good keyboard experience.

Re: Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

#12

Post by Torwald »

prvc wrote: post #4

>A growing pile of video-game histories [...] suggest that the medium has always had collective effort at its heart, from its academic beginnings to its ascent into everyday life. In Meier’s memoir, we discover that he was a good game-maker when he fought this essential fact, but that he became great when he learned to embrace it. >The strength of the modding community is, instead, the very reason the series survived…

> It does seem like games, of all things, would have the potential to be at their greatest under the vision of a single author, but history has shown the opposite

I have to disagree with you here.

Both Civ II and Alpha Centauri were headed by a strong single author. As were both the original Civ and Civ IV which I and many others would see as the best manifestation of the game.

We can also see this outside of the Civ franchise. Think of Super Mario, Popoulous, Doom/Quacke, Sim City, Elite – just to name a few.

Great games were made by great Designers, yes, single authors. Very much akin to big movies or fantasy novels.

Re: Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

#13

Post by dataduck »

toyg wrote: post #10
prvc wrote: post #4

>A growing pile of video-game histories [...] suggest that the medium has always had collective effort at its heart, from its academic beginnings to its ascent into everyday life. In Meier’s memoir, we discover that he was a good game-maker when he fought this essential fact, but that he became great when he learned to embrace it. >The strength of the modding community is, instead, the very reason the series survived…

I think that's just like the fact that John Lennon did his best work in The Beatles, or that George Lucas's best films are the ones where he was challenged by collaborators. Once art requires a certain amount of diverse techniques in order to be produced, the chances that a single individual will excel in all of them fall dramatically.

I don't even think there needs to be more than one "technique" - think of all the authors that are worse without an editor. It's about not having any pushback, and missing your blind spots or getting high on your own supply.

Re: Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

#14

Post by silvester23 »

prvc wrote: post #4

>A growing pile of video-game histories [...] suggest that the medium has always had collective effort at its heart, from its academic beginnings to its ascent into everyday life. In Meier’s memoir, we discover that he was a good game-maker when he fought this essential fact, but that he became great when he learned to embrace it. >The strength of the modding community is, instead, the very reason the series survived…

I'm really no expert on game designers but from the top of my head I can think of at least one that I would describe as genius, namely Chris Sawyer who made Transport Tycoon and Rollercoaster Tycoon almost single-handedly.

If that's not genius, I don't know what is.

Re: Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

#15

Post by prvc »

Torwald wrote: post #12
prvc wrote: post #4

>A growing pile of video-game histories [...] suggest that the medium has always had collective effort at its heart, from its academic beginnings to its ascent into everyday life. In Meier’s memoir, we discover that he was a good game-maker when he fought this essential fact, but that he became great when he learned to embrace it. >The strength of the modding community is, instead, the very reason the series survived…

> It does seem like games, of all things, would have the potential to be at their greatest under the vision of a single author, but history has shown the opposite I have to disagree with you here. Both Civ II and Alpha Centauri were headed by a strong single author. As were both the original Civ and Civ IV which I and many others would see as the best manifestation of the game. We can also see this outside of the Civ…

>Popoulous, Doom/Quacke

These examples, at least (the others are a bit outside of my knowledge), fit the pattern outlined above of having worse successor projects headed by a former team-member.

Re: Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

#16

Post by midasuni »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #9
smitty1e wrote: post #7

After an 18-hour Civ III maration in 1996 or so, I just haven't had the stomach for games.

Civ III came out in 2001...

Civ 3 caused me to go out and buy a hard drive to put windows on it so I could play it, it was that good.

I played the Americans in one game, and as time progressed oil appears. I had a large empire, but no oil. My peaceful neighbouring empire however did, so I had no choice but to invade.

20 years. Great times.

Re: Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

#17

Post by hef19898 »

midasuni wrote: post #16
thaumasiotes wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Civ III came out in 2001...

Civ 3 caused me to go out and buy a hard drive to put windows on it so I could play it, it was that good. I played the Americans in one game, and as time progressed oil appears. I had a large empire, but no oil. My peaceful neighbouring empire however did, so I had no choice but to invade. 20 years. Great times.

I still remember my "great iron wars of the North" between the Japanese (me) and the Celts (AI) in Civ 4(?). The went on for around 100 years or so and decided the dominance of the continent. Still among the best games I ever had, despite hundreds of hours in Civ 6 since then. Side note, the japanese-celt wars ended in a nuclear exchange later on.

Re: Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

#19

Post by hef19898 »

29athrowaway wrote: post #11

Civ 4 was the last true Civ to have a gameplay similar to the the originals. Civ 5 and 6 introduced unit stacking constraints that completely change the way the game is played. If WW2 happened in Civ 5 or 6, the Normandy landings would not have been possible because you would not be able to stack large number of units in one tile. Those landings were "a death stack". But even if every large battle in history could be…

Civ 6 is actually rather good, especially with Gathering storm and Rise and Fall. I have to agree so, Civ 4 is better. At least in memory, but that is propably biased due to some really great games under Civ 4. And those games are rare, regardless of version.

Re: Sid Meier and the meaning of ‘Civilization’

#20

Post by jens67 »

Guthur wrote: post #5
ksia wrote: post #3

"There is a concept which corrupts and upsets all others. I refer not to Evil, whose limited realm is that of ethics; I refer to the Infinite" Games are infinity generators. Mark Zuckerberg and Sid Meier are superficial heros. They just stand around with their 6 inch chimp brains staring at that Infinity they have seeded, trying to take credit for what works and hide behind good intentions for what fails. They and th…

What the hell are you actually on about. Don't take any single point of view as Canon gospel, sure. But just completely dismissing them would call into question whether anyone's view is actually relevant. What nihilistic nonsense.

I read the superficial as they both are propped up by experienced people to attract similar talent acoording to the article. Its a great marketing and hiring strategy. And that has probably more to do with the success of the game than the individual game designers.
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