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Fortnite will be blacklisted by Apple until all appeals exhausted

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Re: Fortnite will be blacklisted by Apple until all appeals exhausted

#61

Post by ApolloFortyNine »

mrtksn wrote: post #55
spywaregorilla wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feels like a weird cognizant dissonance to me. You should antagonize apple for abusing its position against all developers, not celebrate them for not doing it only against the little guy.

I don’t think it’s an abuse, it’s simply a business. Apple holds the minority share of smartphones WW. It’s perfectly possible not to do work on their platform if the terms are not good. I’m annoyed when they sherlock someone but not when they stick to the agreement they made with the developers.

In the vast majority of markets where having apps is simply secondary to the core business, it's rather impossible to succeed without both an android and an apple app.

In the US its practically 50/50, and being forced to write off 50% of the US, who have no other way to install your app, is ridiculous. And a 30% cut is absolutely massive, for comparison, Walmarts profit margin in 2020 was 3%.

That it has been allowed to continue this long is simply a failure of government.

Re: Fortnite will be blacklisted by Apple until all appeals exhausted

#62

Post by dng88 »

Being in business can apple just not do business with it as an ultimatum. It is not like it is a public entity that must do business with anyone. Wonder?

Apple is not like steam charge more for lower tier developer. Usually differentiate pricing is a sign of monopoly. Or force bundle. Instead the court seemed to force price differential and lone developer would have to pay more (in the need to do external payment).

Still hope sone economic monopoly argument. On top of marketing one.

Re: Fortnite will be blacklisted by Apple until all appeals exhausted

#63

Post by mrtksn »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #61
mrtksn wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it’s an abuse, it’s simply a business. Apple holds the minority share of smartphones WW. It’s perfectly possible not to do work on their platform if the terms are not good. I’m annoyed when they sherlock someone but not when they stick to the agreement they made with the developers.

In the vast majority of markets where having apps is simply secondary to the core business, it's rather impossible to succeed without both an android and an apple app. In the US its practically 50/50, and being forced to write off 50% of the US, who have no other way to install your app, is ridiculous. And a 30% cut is absolutely massive, for comparison, Walmarts profit margin in 2020 was 3%. That it has been allowed…

I agree that a regulation is needed for certain things. What I don’t agree is Epic bullying it’s way because that (assumed) they can.

BTW the %30 is fine considering the service they give. They handle the international trade part of the business, which is vastly different from what Walmart does. If you were to sell directly to customers, you would have to incorporate in each and every country there is(because you need to pay taxes and comply to the laws where your clients are), which is something that Epic can do but small developers can’t. Thanks to Apple, a kid with a computer can directly compete against international corporations. Also, Apple provides many if the technology that enables these apps. There’s no comparison between what a supermarket does and Apple does.

Re: Fortnite will be blacklisted by Apple until all appeals exhausted

#64

Post by ianferrel »

ziml77 wrote: post #16
ianferrel wrote: post #7

"Just last week, Epic agreed with Apple that we would play by the same rules as everyone else." This is in the linked thread. But, if the legal challenge is ongoing, then I am skeptical that they've really agreed to anything. Writing an email to Apple saying "I agree to your terms" while continuing to fight in court over those terms is not an agreement of anything.

They can agree to follow the terms while at the same time believing that the terms are unfair. They don't have to break the ToS to get the ToS changed.

They could do that, and that appears to be what they want to do, but I tend to agree with Apple that continuing a legal attempt to overturn the terms doesn't constitute "agreeing" to the terms. There's an old joke about diplomacy being "the art of saying 'nice doggie' until you can find a rock".

Apple is in my opinion correct that Epic is still looking for that rock, and is not bound to respect what Epic says while it does so.

>They don't have to break the ToS to get the ToS changed.

Might have been a good idea for Epic to consider that prior to doing so.

Re: Fortnite will be blacklisted by Apple until all appeals exhausted

#65

Post by rideontime »

elliekelly wrote: post #42
rideontime wrote: post #6

So now Tim says he won't come back to iOS until they're allowed to link directly to the external payment option from the app. My understanding of the court order was that Apple only had to allow apps to tell users that external payment was an option, not that they had to be able to link directly to it.

Here's the exact language from the ruling: > Accordingly, a nationwide injunction shall issue enjoining Apple from prohibiting developers to include in their: Apps and their metadata buttons, external links, or other calls to action that direct customers to purchasing mechanisms, in addition to IAP. > Nor may Apple prohibit developers from: Communicating with customers through points of contact obtained voluntarily f…

My understanding seems to have been incorrect, if the words "external links" are in the ruling itself I don't know how Apple squirms out of that one. I guess by denying their return to the app store on other grounds.

Re: Fortnite will be blacklisted by Apple until all appeals exhausted

#66

Post by m-p-3 »

redwall_hp wrote: post #48
lwansbrough wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Savvy is one way to put it. As an app developer it simply makes me not want to work with Apple at all, but of course I'm forced to for some reason.

Don't forget the long history of "Sherlocking." If you make a utility that enhances the experience enough, they'll simply imitate it and give you the middle finger. Or a $99/year fee to give away FOSS projects...

Apple would at least get some goodwill of the FOSS community if they offered free publishing when an app is linked to an open-source code repository.

Re: Fortnite will be blacklisted by Apple until all appeals exhausted

#67

Post by Wowfunhappy »

I still don't understand what the Mac version has to do with this. Just ship a self-signed binary and make users let it through Gatekeeper. Yes, this is annoying for users, but not moreso than sideloading Android apps, and Epic is still updating the Android version even though it's not in the Play Store.

Re: Fortnite will be blacklisted by Apple until all appeals exhausted

#68

Post by max1cc »

matt_heimer wrote: post #59

Anyone know where Apple stated they'd "welcome Epic’s return to the App Store if they agree to play by the same rules as everyone else" as Tim states? I see where Apple said everybody should play by the same rules but given that Epic not only violated the policy (which has now been changed) but also purposely cheated on the review process it seems justified that they are still banned.

The only place I can find the quote is in an article from The Verge from a couple of weeks ago: https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/10/22667069/fortnite-ios-ret...

Re: Fortnite will be blacklisted by Apple until all appeals exhausted

#69

Post by ziml77 »

ianferrel wrote: post #64
ziml77 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can agree to follow the terms while at the same time believing that the terms are unfair. They don't have to break the ToS to get the ToS changed.

They could do that, and that appears to be what they want to do, but I tend to agree with Apple that continuing a legal attempt to overturn the terms doesn't constitute "agreeing" to the terms. There's an old joke about diplomacy being "the art of saying 'nice doggie' until you can find a rock". Apple is in my opinion correct that Epic is still looking for that rock, and is not bound to respect what Epic says while i…

Oh absolutely. I think Apple is making the correct move here.

Re: Fortnite will be blacklisted by Apple until all appeals exhausted

#70

Post by floatingatoll »

rideontime wrote: post #65
elliekelly wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the exact language from the ruling: > Accordingly, a nationwide injunction shall issue enjoining Apple from prohibiting developers to include in their: Apps and their metadata buttons, external links, or other calls to action that direct customers to purchasing mechanisms, in addition to IAP. > Nor may Apple prohibit developers from: Communicating with customers through points of contact obtained voluntarily f…

My understanding seems to have been incorrect, if the words "external links" are in the ruling itself I don't know how Apple squirms out of that one. I guess by denying their return to the app store on other grounds.

The ruling does not require Apple to permit those external methods of payment to be embedded within the app, rather than opened outside the app in the system web browser. Epic oversteps their rights by declaring to Apple that Apple must accept their 'alternative IAP' methodology. Apple is under no compulsion to define their terms to accept Epic's intentions as compliant with rules that they have 90 days to decide on and publish, and has many options available in their decisions that would both comply with the ruling while also continuing to prohibit Epic's declared intentions.

The ruling also gives Apple 90 days to decide the exact specifics of how it will comply with the ruling, and until then, the Fortnite app's code would remain out of compliance with the current rules until they are updated within the 90 day period. Since Epic does not commit in their letter to Apple to removing that code, to comply with the rules as they are today, of course Apple chose not to accept them back into the store. If Epic had unwound their willful violation of the rules as they are today, they would have met Apple's stated terms for having developer services restored and likely would not have been asked to wait.

Aside from the guidelines change, does the ruling specifically compel Apple to set aside Epic's contractual violation, or is Apple allowed if they so desire to simply let stand their standard normal permaban for "you knowingly lied to Apple and broke the rules" as the rules were defined at the time?

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