Live data from Hacker News

Meritocracy Is Bad

slowboring.com

11–20 of 36 posts

Re: Meritocracy Is Bad

#11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matthew Yglesias, the author of this piece, went to Harvard.

Yet despite having gone to Harvard, doesn't seem to be able to distinguish credentialism from meritocracy. But hey! At least he went to Harvard right?...

The irony..

Re: Meritocracy Is Bad

#12
Merriam-Webster:

>Meritocracy: a system, organization, or society in which people are chosen and moved into positions of success, power, and influence on the basis of their demonstrated abilities and merit [0]

It seems to me that Meritocracy is an unfortunately vague word. Given that, it's difficult to say much definitively about the US with respect to it. The American dream and the idea that if you work hard enough you can succeed are pretty wedded to the idea of Meritocracy.

The confounding factor is that it seems like one's constantly seeing successful, powerful, or influential people whose "demonstrated abilities and merit" are difficult to find.

[0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/meritocracy

Re: Meritocracy Is Bad

#13
post #2

> It’s because just assigning all power and responsibility and economic reward to the best and brightest is a genuinely bad idea. Very difficult to generalize this as this doesn't apply to 'all' things. Maybe for some types of jobs but not for all types of jobs.

Sure, maybe not all types of jobs, but to be fair he does say "in the political realm" at one point in the article, and it did occur to me that many people often take the opposite as an a priori assumption, that "meritocracy is good thing for all types of jobs" (myself, sometimes, included!). I'm not a fan of this author, but I did find this little polemic a needed "push-back"

(That said, I also think the article could be much improved in terms of argumentation, it seems pretty off-the-cuff.)

Re: Meritocracy Is Bad

#14
In one portion of the article ("Smart people do bad things"), it seems like the argument isn't really against Meritocracy, it's against using intelligence as the only metric powering your meritocracy. If your meritocracy rewards a combination of ethical and intelligent behavior, you still have a pure merit-based system, you've just picked a particular merit function that you like more.

I felt that that part of the article was a little weak and ended up doing what the author criticized others for doing, namely criticizing the implementation of meritocracy rather than the concept itself.

Re: Meritocracy Is Bad

#15
For some reason this idea that meritocracy is undesirable has been making the rounds recently. I haven't heard any proposed alternatives that would be at all viable in a society where we want critical roles to be performed by competent people. Do we really want incompetent people running things because they will botch their attempts at being unethical? It certainly seems like the author is making that argument.

Yes, we don't want an ever increasing wealth gap but dismantling meritocracy strikes me as the worst possible way to deal with that.

Re: Meritocracy Is Bad

#16
I'm conflicted about this essay. I agree with many of the points but fail to see how it relates to and ultimately disagree with the thesis that meritocracy is bad.

Taking the tennis example, sure, it would be beneficial for the top players to have a flatter payout structure. But this ultimately leads to the ATP tour being solidified and newcomers being barred from entry as now the player ranked 250 is now earning an income that they can afford much better training than outsiders. It isn't immediately clear that this system is better from a social point of view.

Relating it back to elite institutions, randomly assigning professors and students to random institutions definitely raises the floor but also lowers the ceiling. Is that socially better? Not immediately obvious. I'm of the opinion that we want to maximize the max possible achievement of an individual to improve the human condition. Very few individuals are responsible for key advancements of civilization.

Finally, the closing statement about Milton Friedman seems rather contradictory to me. The argument that changing the entire cultural attitude of business is somehow different than regulation seems odd to me. Stigmatizing certain actions is just merely the weakest form of regulation that allows for unethical behavior to be rewarded even greater.

Re: Meritocracy Is Bad

#17
post #2

> It’s because just assigning all power and responsibility and economic reward to the best and brightest is a genuinely bad idea. Very difficult to generalize this as this doesn't apply to 'all' things. Maybe for some types of jobs but not for all types of jobs.

Sure, maybe not all types of jobs, but to be fair he does say "in the political realm" at one point in the article, and it did occur to me that many people often take the opposite as an a priori assumption, that "meritocracy is good thing for all types of jobs" (myself, sometimes, included!). I'm not a fan of this author, but I did find this little polemic a needed "push-back" (That said, I also think the article cou…

Surely it’s not that the idea of meritocracy is necessarily wrong just that the concept of what constitutes merit for a job is complex. The article begins essentially conflating merit with intelligence which is clearly pretty one dimensional for all sorts of ideas about merit for a job role. Let alone merit as a part of broader society. So it’s not really that meritocracy is bad but the definition of merit is. Which is one of the more widely held criticisms of meritocracy generally that a stable, shared view of merit doesn’t really exist.

Re: Meritocracy Is Bad

#18
post #3

This reads as coming from resentment “sure, they are smarter, more prepared, and more experienced than me… but I want to believe I am more ethical. Yeah, meritocracy is the problem, not me”

What? Are you actually saying that this is just Matty's sour grapes? I personally disagree with most of his positions in general, but it's silly to imply he's anything but very successful and credentialed in his field [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Yglesias

Re: Meritocracy Is Bad

#19
Well... I think meritocracy is perfect, it mirrors evolution in rewarding superior contributors(ie, on their merit). However, being in the "elite" mentioned in the article does not imply you have merit. People in that "elite" might have merit, but they might also just have rich/powerful parents, connections, and friends. If that's the case, then they aren't "elite" based on their merit, but based on who they know.

Re: Meritocracy Is Bad

#20
>I know some dumb Democrats and some smart Republicans. I hope that when Republican Party politicians are in office, they listen to the smart Republicans about things rather than the dumb ones. But I’d rather have a dumb Democrat win a Senate race over a smart Republican any day. Smarts just don’t matter that much.

I think Matthew Yglesias is saying "Republic is always a bad person and Democrat is always good".

If he could judge someone solely based on his political identity without examining that individual person's merits and character, it says a lot of his world view. Not surprised if he knows nothing about true Conservative principles.

I invite him to read China's history from 1930 to 1980, where he will find many like-minded Chinese communist fellows who also judge people solely based on their economic class and status. The "Cultural Revolution" would be an epic-reading for him.

Post reply on HN