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Windows Phone GM leaving Microsoft, with a rallying cry

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Re: Windows Phone GM leaving Microsoft, with a rallying cry

#21

Post by commandar »

jsz0 wrote: post #18
i2o wrote: post #2

For those who don't know Charlie his contributions include (as listed at http://www.liveside.net/2011/08/08/charlie-kindel-to-leave-m... ): - Founded Premier support - Built ActiveX and DCOM - Shipped Internet Explorer 3.0 - Drove the development of the home networking features in Windows XP - Founded eHome and shipped the first version of Windows Media Center - Drove the invention of Windows Smart Displays and Windo…

It's a shame that both Windows MCE and Windows Home Server never lived up to their potential. Possibly we can add WM7 to that list in a few years too. I can understand why he's leaving. It must be horrible to develop these really good products and see your company drop the ball on them.

WHS was a great idea tied to an awful implementation. I installed a copy through MAPS at work, and I think it lasted all of 15 minutes before I dismissed it entirely; it looked like very little more than Windows Server 2003 with some weakly integrated automation sitting on top.

Re: Windows Phone GM leaving Microsoft, with a rallying cry

#22

Post by iqster »

kenjackson wrote: post #9
mariusmg wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously ? One dude built ActiveX and DCOM ?! Wow...

No, he was part of a team.

I think mariusmg is making a point. The text above is written as if the person solely did the work. In my opinion it would have been better to write it as "part of numerous teams, including ones that developed X, Y and Z."

Re: Windows Phone GM leaving Microsoft, with a rallying cry

#23

Post by DenisM »

i2o wrote: post #2

For those who don't know Charlie his contributions include (as listed at http://www.liveside.net/2011/08/08/charlie-kindel-to-leave-m... ): - Founded Premier support - Built ActiveX and DCOM - Shipped Internet Explorer 3.0 - Drove the development of the home networking features in Windows XP - Founded eHome and shipped the first version of Windows Media Center - Drove the invention of Windows Smart Displays and Windo…

I can't find a single product on this list that I could say, "yep, that was worth it".

DCOM - a pile of complexity even most Microsoft employees couldn't understand. Different threading models, security problems, you name it. In my early days as Microsoft employee one unfortunate guy decided to implement an app to manage installing latest build of a (different) product and running tests on a couple hundred machines; he spent month fighting DCOM problems.

ActiveX - huge security nightmare in the browsers.

IE3 - don't know, don't remember much.

WMC - windows-based media centers are a failure. Large, noisy, boxes, poor power management, lack of support for MKV in the latest version. Had they done it right there would never be a Roku, and Apple TV would be too late to market. It's failure.

Home server - they should have solved two simple problems: 1) every windows user should have a backup solution according to his budget (starting from $50 and up) 2) every windows user should have a one-click file-sharing solution according to his budget (starting at zero dollars). They failed at both. I guesstimate 90% of windows users still do not have a backup solution. This reflects poorly on the entire platform reputation. So they came up with a $400 noisy, blinking box that needs its own space. These "features" are most often incompatible with female spousal units. Geeks love those gadgets, which is the market they conquered, leaving normal people behind.

WP7 - they jury is still out on that one.

Overall this looks like a bunch of products only a geek could love. Yes, they are cool, but they failed to live up to the Microsoft's then-ambitions - to change normal people's lives for the better.

Re: Windows Phone GM leaving Microsoft, with a rallying cry

#24

Post by kenjackson »

rimantas wrote: post #17
kenjackson wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, all of them.

Alas, I had to deal with IE3. Not sure what to be proud about that thing (except for being a bit better than IE2).

From Wikipedia on what was in IE3:

"Version 3 included Internet Mail and News 1.0 and the Windows Address Book. It also brought the browser much closer to the bar that had been set by Netscape, including the support of Netscape's plugins technology (NPAPI), ActiveX, frames, and a reverse-engineered version of JavaScript named JScript. Later, Microsoft NetMeeting and Windows Media Player were integrated into the product and thus helper applications became not as necessary as they once were. Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) were also introduced with version 3 of Internet Explorer."

IE was clearly playing catch up at that point, but one thing I do remember is that IE was acceleratig really quickly. And like you, I do recall IE3 being behind Netscape, but I also recall it being the first time I thought, "MS is on a trajectory to surpass Netscape shortly".

Re: Windows Phone GM leaving Microsoft, with a rallying cry

#25

Post by pedalpete »

DenisM wrote: post #23
i2o wrote: post #2

For those who don't know Charlie his contributions include (as listed at http://www.liveside.net/2011/08/08/charlie-kindel-to-leave-m... ): - Founded Premier support - Built ActiveX and DCOM - Shipped Internet Explorer 3.0 - Drove the development of the home networking features in Windows XP - Founded eHome and shipped the first version of Windows Media Center - Drove the invention of Windows Smart Displays and Windo…

I can't find a single product on this list that I could say, "yep, that was worth it". DCOM - a pile of complexity even most Microsoft employees couldn't understand. Different threading models, security problems, you name it. In my early days as Microsoft employee one unfortunate guy decided to implement an app to manage installing latest build of a (different) product and running tests on a couple hundred machines;…

Just because you don't like/use the products is no reason to assault somebody else's work like that.

Some of these products have resulted in millions of dollars and (apparently) some happy customers.

Re: Windows Phone GM leaving Microsoft, with a rallying cry

#26

Post by runjake »

MartinCron wrote: post #13
solutionyogi wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this in anyway related to Silverlight?

SilverLight has been presented as the preferred way to develop for Windows Phone 7, much to the dismay of some SilverLight web/desktop developers who find it a good technology for web/desktop work and fear that it will be phased out.

Really, it's been mis-presented by Microsoft.

Developing a WP7 app normally involves C# and XAML (for most UI layout). The frameworks include the usual .NET stuff, as well as Silverlight and XNA (MS's gaming/graphics) frameworks. A competent .NET or Silverlight developer can move into the WP7 development world comfortably.

I don't believe your comment about "dismay" is really accurate. I think Silverlight developers probably fall under one of two buckets: 1) "Cool! I can develop phone apps using my existing skillset!", or 2) "I don't really care about mobile development."

Re: Windows Phone GM leaving Microsoft, with a rallying cry

#27

Post by i2o »

jsz0 wrote: post #18
i2o wrote: post #2

For those who don't know Charlie his contributions include (as listed at http://www.liveside.net/2011/08/08/charlie-kindel-to-leave-m... ): - Founded Premier support - Built ActiveX and DCOM - Shipped Internet Explorer 3.0 - Drove the development of the home networking features in Windows XP - Founded eHome and shipped the first version of Windows Media Center - Drove the invention of Windows Smart Displays and Windo…

It's a shame that both Windows MCE and Windows Home Server never lived up to their potential. Possibly we can add WM7 to that list in a few years too. I can understand why he's leaving. It must be horrible to develop these really good products and see your company drop the ball on them.

MCE's challenge (at the time) was the cable networks death grip on the signal. It took years for CableCARD to surface, and even then it was limited in its deployment geographically and provider wise. If that had been solved much quicker I bet we would have seen a larger MCE ecosystem form. Nowadays the world is moving on to online streaming which presents other challenges. Looking at Boxee's solution shows how hard it is to get it to work as smooth as possible. Apple is besting it by brokering deals with content providers, perhaps something Microsoft should have pursued earlier. It's tough when you've heard the internal vision of what it could have been and seen what is has become. There was so much not brought to the public that would have made MCE a staple in the home theatre.

Re: Windows Phone GM leaving Microsoft, with a rallying cry

#28

Post by MartinCron »

runjake wrote: post #26
MartinCron wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SilverLight has been presented as the preferred way to develop for Windows Phone 7, much to the dismay of some SilverLight web/desktop developers who find it a good technology for web/desktop work and fear that it will be phased out.

Really, it's been mis-presented by Microsoft. Developing a WP7 app normally involves C# and XAML (for most UI layout). The frameworks include the usual .NET stuff, as well as Silverlight and XNA (MS's gaming/graphics) frameworks. A competent .NET or Silverlight developer can move into the WP7 development world comfortably. I don't believe your comment about "dismay" is really accurate. I think Silverlight developers…

RE: dismay, I was thinking of a previous article I saw here on HN:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2644364

although it seems that was a bit over-sensationalized. I agree that at least reasonable SL developers will fall into your two buckets.

Re: Windows Phone GM leaving Microsoft, with a rallying cry

#29

Post by runjake »

MartinCron wrote: post #28
runjake wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, it's been mis-presented by Microsoft. Developing a WP7 app normally involves C# and XAML (for most UI layout). The frameworks include the usual .NET stuff, as well as Silverlight and XNA (MS's gaming/graphics) frameworks. A competent .NET or Silverlight developer can move into the WP7 development world comfortably. I don't believe your comment about "dismay" is really accurate. I think Silverlight developers…

RE: dismay, I was thinking of a previous article I saw here on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2644364 although it seems that was a bit over-sensationalized. I agree that at least reasonable SL developers will fall into your two buckets.

Yeah, sounds a bit over-sensationalized.

Microsoft is probably silent because they're not sure what technology the final project will use. Some exec could've ignorantly opened their mouth about "html5+js" and left the Win8 engineers groaning.

It'd pretty clear to me that .NET/Silverlight/WPF aren't going away. They are too popular and there's too much activity around those technologies.

Re: Windows Phone GM leaving Microsoft, with a rallying cry

#30

Post by 9oliYQjP »

DenisM wrote: post #23
i2o wrote: post #2

For those who don't know Charlie his contributions include (as listed at http://www.liveside.net/2011/08/08/charlie-kindel-to-leave-m... ): - Founded Premier support - Built ActiveX and DCOM - Shipped Internet Explorer 3.0 - Drove the development of the home networking features in Windows XP - Founded eHome and shipped the first version of Windows Media Center - Drove the invention of Windows Smart Displays and Windo…

I can't find a single product on this list that I could say, "yep, that was worth it". DCOM - a pile of complexity even most Microsoft employees couldn't understand. Different threading models, security problems, you name it. In my early days as Microsoft employee one unfortunate guy decided to implement an app to manage installing latest build of a (different) product and running tests on a couple hundred machines;…

I'm a bit nostalgic but I think IE3 was huge. I was still in high school but I remember staying up all night so that I could download it the moment it was available. Up until IE3 was released, Netscape Navigator was virtually unchallenged. It was only a few months, but Netscape Navigator's big new feature was Javascript. IE3 came out with JScript support only a few months later and nullified much of Netscape Navigator's advantage there. It matched Navigator's support for plugins and HTML frames, which was important because a lot of sites were taking advantage of HTML frames at the time. If I remember correctly, it even loaded pages a lot faster than Netscape Navigator. Netmeeting and Windows Media Player also eventually came bundled with IE3 which provided a tiny glimpse of what a future web could offer, even if our paltry 14.4k and 28.8k modems couldn't deliver at the time.

Also, ActiveX gets a bad wrap but mostly because of the lack of forethought that went into security and the fact that ActiveX was Windows-only. The underlying goal being able to add functionality to the browser using a "real" programming language was just ahead of its time. For what it's worth, ActiveX was a response to Java applets which attempted a similar goal but ultimately failed because of a lack of performance (i.e., people hate Java applets because they're slow). I don't remember ActiveX suffering from the same performance issues.

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