Principles of Green Software Engineering • Hacker News Board

Re: Principles of Green Software Engineering

#21

Post by musingsole » Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 1:20 PM UTC

BoxOfRain wrote: post #6

throwaway2016a wrote: post #4

It seems most of these boil down to: build more efficient software. Software that is more efficient with the network and CPU is also cheaper to run. So the incentives are generally aligned. When I deploy a system I want it to run on 5 servers not 50 for cost reasons not because I'm being green. If I'm being green by accident, that's a bonus. I'm glad on the "measure" side it gives examples of how to measure (though I…

I do wonder how many kW of power things that HN generally disparages as bloated (Electron being the main one people talk about) actually adds up to versus more efficient technologies?

If the result or information presented by the most horrendous, energy inefficient, blockchain-backed, cloud replicated app results in a SINGLE person NOT traveling for a weekend, the carbon savings would completely demolish any cost for the software overhead.

/Devil's Champion Argument Incoming/: Facebook's part in effectively coordinating most people in most parts of the world to stay home during the pandemic has probably weighted their carbon ledger forever into the black. Or at least 5 years of dedicated bitcoin mining.

These green engineering ideas are interesting but taking them seriously would be the epitome of engineers optimizing the wrong thing.

Re: Principles of Green Software Engineering

#22

Post by horsawlarway » Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #20

horsawlarway wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're firmly into the realm of diminishing returns by the time you're trying to optimize code that runs on a laptop that has a total power draw of 60ish watts. Frankly - Using my kettle to make coffee twice a day (~15 minutes of runtime) is the same as running my laptop at full power draw for 5 hours. Just switching a single lightbulb in your house from standard (~100w) to LED (~20w) more than offsets your w…

The laptop power draw is dynamic depending on what you're doing with it, including how heavy the webpages are. But I agree that heating will generally dominate domestic use.

Sure, but I'm being exceedingly generous with 60w, assuming a modern device that's about the limit of power consumption. To quote phoronix benchmarks on my machine:

Lastly, the battery power consumption varied from about 5 Watts during idling and when the screen was automatically dimmed to as high as 40 Watts under the most grueling benchmarks. On average through under load the power consumption was around 18.1 Watts.

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=dell-xps...

Re: Principles of Green Software Engineering

#23

Post by pjc50 » Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 1:23 PM UTC

PoissonVache wrote: post #19

My mom keeps bothering me to turn off the light before I leave home while any of the Youtube video she watch costs as much energy as keeping my light on for days/months. If only people were more aware of the energy cost of Internet.

I'd want numbers for that; youtube is fairly efficient, especially on a mobile device.

Coincidentally I found a thread recently (in French) claiming that it was more energy-efficient to watch Netflix than broadcast TV: https://twitter.com/pbeyssac/status/1439977593315512320

Re: Principles of Green Software Engineering

#24

Post by anyonecancode » Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 1:23 PM UTC

throwaway2016a wrote: post #4

It seems most of these boil down to: build more efficient software. Software that is more efficient with the network and CPU is also cheaper to run. So the incentives are generally aligned. When I deploy a system I want it to run on 5 servers not 50 for cost reasons not because I'm being green. If I'm being green by accident, that's a bonus. I'm glad on the "measure" side it gives examples of how to measure (though I…

> So the incentives are generally aligned. When I deploy a system I want it to run on 5 servers not 50 for cost reasons not because I'm being green. If I'm being green by accident, that's a bonus.

I think that's the whole game right there -- figure out how to make sure negative externalities stop being external and become part of the cost. Then incentives will naturally align, as opposed to being at odds. In the case of your comment, you're noting they're already aligned, but overall I think many times they are not.

Re: Principles of Green Software Engineering

#25

Post by ericb » Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 1:24 PM UTC

I wonder if this might be penny wise and pound foolish.

Hypothetically, if it takes even a single week longer to make code much more efficient and only 20% of that workforce is driving to work, making coffee, running their laptops, etc, do you come out ahead?

Re: Principles of Green Software Engineering

#26

Post by anonymoushn » Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 1:27 PM UTC

horsawlarway wrote: post #15

BoxOfRain wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do wonder how many kW of power things that HN generally disparages as bloated (Electron being the main one people talk about) actually adds up to versus more efficient technologies?

I think you're firmly into the realm of diminishing returns by the time you're trying to optimize code that runs on a laptop that has a total power draw of 60ish watts. Frankly - Using my kettle to make coffee twice a day (~15 minutes of runtime) is the same as running my laptop at full power draw for 5 hours. Just switching a single lightbulb in your house from standard (~100w) to LED (~20w) more than offsets your w…

How many laptops does it run on all day, and does anyone run it on desktops instead?

Re: Principles of Green Software Engineering

#27

Post by yitchelle » Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

Worked on a project where if our product exceeds a power consumption threshold, we would be penalised financially. x dollars per kilowatt per month per instance. It adds up fast!

Re: Principles of Green Software Engineering

#28

Post by throwaway894345 » Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

OscarCunningham wrote: post #14

If only we had a carbon tax, these could all be replaced with 'save money'.

I often feel that all of these “personal responsibility” initiatives are distractions from passing a carbon tax as well. Polluters have a long history of campaigning for personal responsibility solutions so they can continue polluting (going back to the “Crying Indian” ad in the 70s). Of course I think everyone should lower their carbon footprint, but we’re never going to come close without carbon tax and border adjustments. Of course if you’re writing your legislators regularly to advocate for a carbon tax and writing Green Software or eating vegan or whatever, then great, but by far the best use of your time is contacting your politicians.

Similarly, I suspect polluters love the Democrats’ climate policy or even the Green New Deal which would have tax-payers spend trillions on programs that are tenuously related to climate (“climate justice”) rather than inhibiting polluters or making them foot the bill. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think the Republicans would do better, but it’s really hard to see us spend trillions and not take climate seriously, all the whole smugly bragging about how we’re the ones who believe scientists.

Re: Principles of Green Software Engineering

#29

Post by horsawlarway » Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

musingsole wrote: post #21

BoxOfRain wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do wonder how many kW of power things that HN generally disparages as bloated (Electron being the main one people talk about) actually adds up to versus more efficient technologies?

If the result or information presented by the most horrendous, energy inefficient, blockchain-backed, cloud replicated app results in a SINGLE person NOT traveling for a weekend, the carbon savings would completely demolish any cost for the software overhead. /Devil's Champion Argument Incoming/: Facebook's part in effectively coordinating most people in most parts of the world to stay home during the pandemic has pr…

I agree 100%.

Reading through this thread has me damn well convinced that most folks have zero idea how much power things in their homes use.

Re: Principles of Green Software Engineering

#30

Post by pjc50 » Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

anyonecancode wrote: post #24

throwaway2016a wrote: post #4

It seems most of these boil down to: build more efficient software. Software that is more efficient with the network and CPU is also cheaper to run. So the incentives are generally aligned. When I deploy a system I want it to run on 5 servers not 50 for cost reasons not because I'm being green. If I'm being green by accident, that's a bonus. I'm glad on the "measure" side it gives examples of how to measure (though I…

> So the incentives are generally aligned. When I deploy a system I want it to run on 5 servers not 50 for cost reasons not because I'm being green. If I'm being green by accident, that's a bonus. I think that's the whole game right there -- figure out how to make sure negative externalities stop being external and become part of the cost. Then incentives will naturally align, as opposed to being at odds. In the case…

In particular, there are all sorts of incentives for adtech to burn CPU on the _client_, which doesn't cost them anything. It's entirely possible to burn 0.1cent of electricity to earn 0.001cent of ad revenue.