Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#381

Post by natmaka » Tue, Sep 21, 2021, 5:17 AM UTC

cbmuser wrote: post #171

bcrosby95 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean financially risky.

Actually, it’s the opposite. It’s absolutely low risk because the electricity production can be sold years in advance if you want. Nuclear electricity has the highest of all capacity factors and is therefore almost 100% planable, so there is virtually zero risk.

Some real costs are hardly predictable: hot waste long-term management, decommission (see the UK case) and especially any boo-boo (Fukushima cleanup costs will be in the ~500bn USD range) do threaten the financial model.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_disaster_cleanup#Cos...

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/27/uks-nucl...

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#382

Post by anticodon » Tue, Sep 21, 2021, 6:03 AM UTC

thehappypm wrote: post #371

vetinari wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now that's pretty nasty rewriting of history. Did you forget that it was Drang nach Osten in the first place?

If anyone is rewriting history, it’s the person making Russia an innocent victim of WWII. Russia wanted conquest of Poland and enabled the blitzkrieg.

Then you must also remember that it was Poland that allied with Hitler before anyone else, in hope that Germany will help it to attack Russia. But Hitler had other plans.

Why you always forget about this part of the history? I guess it's not illustrated well in your media blaming Russia for all of your miseries.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#383

Post by adrianN » Tue, Sep 21, 2021, 6:45 AM UTC

ephbit wrote: post #319

adrianN wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why do countries rely on foreign oil, gas, and coal all the time?

Because they at least can store months worth of gas/oil/coal on their own territory.

You can store months worth of hydrogen from electrolysis too.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#384

Post by p_l » Tue, Sep 21, 2021, 7:09 AM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #299

goguy wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem though isn't it. Reliance on humans.

Which is not a problem in designs that incorporate passive safety (FAST, slow wave).

Or already tested out (including in an accident) SVBR design... unfortunately, other than the geopolitical issues, it is partially locked by low supply of bismuth (it has a variant without bismuth, but it's not without downsides, iirc)

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#385

Post by Symbiote » Tue, Sep 21, 2021, 7:17 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #359

PeterisP wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no "French and German grids", most of EU is a single grid (see map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Continenta... ) and there's no meaningful difference between "interconnects" linking France and Germany and power lines within France, though there are a bit fewer of them than internal lines. There are some limited interconnects linking continental EU with UK and Scandinavia with some trade ha…

Calling it one grid is kind of misleading. There is nowhere near enough transmission if all power production in say Spain failed even if in theory there is enough excess capacity across the EU to provide power to Spain. Limits on transmission result in individual countries generally having significantly different wholesale prices.

Isn't that the case with a grid of any size?

The British grid has a North - South imbalance, if I understand that correctly 20% of power would be lost with a 1500km transmission distance.

Replacing all the power of Spain would be very inefficient, even if the connections did exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Grid_(Great_Britain) (Power Flow section)

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#386

Post by p_l » Tue, Sep 21, 2021, 7:18 AM UTC

pfdietz wrote: post #296

p_l wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Said "fraction", for moderately modest needs and assuming just 24h window where it provides "baseload" can be as "low" as 1/3rd of total renewable capacity - assuming that renewables do 100% of peak whiel saving the excess.. Or so analysis from people I know in the industry, interested in decarbonising (not fossil lobby related), show.

Sounds about right. See https://model.energy/ for a toy model that gives about that number, when you solve the optimization problem for Germany. The optimal solutions still have some renewable curtailment, though.

Trying to get usable values for Warsaw area, it gives me the result that we need 8x overbuilding (curiously it suggests solar power mostly), and I'm not sure if we could decarbonize heating on that.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#387

Post by natmaka » Tue, Sep 21, 2021, 7:37 AM UTC

asdff wrote: post #380

pfdietz wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pointing to Ivanpah is disingenuous, as solar thermal of that kind is has failed to compete. PV is much cheaper now, and PV needs no cooling water.

Even without the water, the fact that you are practically on the moon out in the deserts of Africa makes any sort of operation difficult enough. It's probably much less of a headache to just open a nuclear power plant on the morrocan coast than to do anything that produces a similar amount of power out in the morrocan desert, where there might not be any roads let alone a grade separated freeway and a freight rail ne…

I doubt so.

A nuclear plant would let Morocco more dependent (expertise and combustible). Multiple intents to obtain uranium (either by mining it, as early as in the 1940's, or as a by-product of phosphate mining) aborted. Selling claims to foreign companies is less risky and is the path followed by Morocco.

A solar farm isn't a plant, there is no real permanent need for heavy-duty infrastructure: it needs few input (no energy nor raw matter, and most spare parts can be stored in the farm) and a set of power-line conveys its sole output, no need for freight trains/trucks.

Moreover Morocco's South is quite different from the average subsaharian desert. There are transport infrastructures, a very pertinent expressway (A3: Casablanca-Marrakesh-Agadir), ports (especially at Laâyoune), even airports (Dakhla can accommodate a Boeing 737). There are serious mining operations, see for example Phosboucraa. Some infra was created by French colons in order to exploit mines and is more-or-less maintained and extended.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#388

Post by 4ggr0 » Tue, Sep 21, 2021, 8:22 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #50

Arnt wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, if you want: Not building twice as many (wind/anything) was a major mistake. Nuclear power plants fail sometimes, just like the wind fails. In 2016 almost a third of the plants in France were offline at the same time, some for planned maintenance, some unplanned, and the peak prices were higher than now. All these things are fixable by overbuilding enough. There's nothing special or magic about nuclear.

> There's nothing special or magic about nuclear. Apart from the technology, safety profile and generally being the cleanest source of energy ever discovered. And being able to stockpile enormous amounts of energy in a small heap if necessary ^^. And if we could just convince people to accept it only causing say, half as much damage as coal it would be ridiculously cheap too. These appallingly high safety standards a…

The issue for me is the trash, or rather, how we are supposed to handle the trash these plants produce.

If you really think just burrying that stuff in a mountain is good enough, then I can't really agree.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#389

Post by vetinari » Tue, Sep 21, 2021, 8:49 AM UTC

anticodon wrote: post #382

thehappypm wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anyone is rewriting history, it’s the person making Russia an innocent victim of WWII. Russia wanted conquest of Poland and enabled the blitzkrieg.

Then you must also remember that it was Poland that allied with Hitler before anyone else, in hope that Germany will help it to attack Russia. But Hitler had other plans. Why you always forget about this part of the history? I guess it's not illustrated well in your media blaming Russia for all of your miseries.

You cannot take anyone seriously, who writes "conquest of Poland". Do they even know, what territory they are talking about and how Poland conquered it 20 years earlier? The same Poland, who had their government officials attending NSDAP conferences.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#390

Post by rini17 » Tue, Sep 21, 2021, 8:56 AM UTC

ddalex wrote: post #219

in3d wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will go down to 0% in Germany in several months. Germany is shutting down its last six nuclear power plants and no new ones can be built. Italy, Switzerland and Belgium also want to shut down their nuclear power plants. Shameful, unscientific public opinion in Western Europe despite more people realizing the danger of global warming.

Eastern will happily pick up the slack on new nuclear power plants and sell that electricity to balance the trade.

Both Czechs and Slovaks are building new nuclear blocks (Temelin and Mochovce) but the progress is slow and riddled by corruption. So it's doubtful they will come online soon.