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Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

economist.com

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Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#281

Post by p_l »

Manuel_D wrote: post #234
pfdietz wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should any exist yet, when natural gas has been so cheap? Tighten the screws enough to eliminate fossil fuel dispatchable sources and you'll start to see it (or something else that can solve the same problem better).

Many places are already seeing energy surpluses. California and Hawaii are consistently reaching excess daytime energy production. If we really can store electricity in hydrogen $1/KWh, then we should be seeing hydrogen storage being built to profit off these intervals of negative energy prices. But we aren't. Is it because people fail to see this market opportunity? Or, maybe, it's because writing a white paper clai…

Scaling is also hard... Turns out you need more than "trickle" overproduction to make reliable amounts of green hydrogen for energy storage.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#282

Post by Retric »

wott wrote: post #252
Retric wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The accounting gets tricky. France is generally paying more per kWh of nuclear than they generally get it from exporting it. However, the marginal costs per kWh is below what their receiving. French nuclear power is such a bad deal for the country they try really hard to avoid showing the public how massive the subsidies are. Oddly enough this seems to have worked, and meanwhile they significantly reduced emissions w…

The only bad deal is a crazily reactive interconnected market, which, when combined with solar/wind production, destroys long-term investments. Solar/wind, when it products, crashes market prices. Nuclear is supposed to produce at those hours too, except that if it does, it sells at a loss; and if it doesn't, it blows its load factor which is supposed to be its strong point. In both cases, because of the destabilisat…

The wholesale inflation adjusted price of electric has been falling in the US over the last 40 years. https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/electricity-... Prices are spiking vs 2020, but are still down inflation adjusted from 2019.

Which is in part an outgrowth of bringing cheaper wind and solar electricity sources online combined with inexpensive natural gas. The headline ultra low wind and solar prices hide the fact they are still profitable to bring online meaning it’s selling enough energy at positive prices to add more. It is also profitable to add batteries to the electric grid in California which should offset other peaking sources like natural gas. The question of what becomes of nuclear may simply be it’s largely phased out with some being kept around as a combination of energy source and useful isotope generator.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#283

Post by marcosdumay »

plater wrote: post #221
cbmuser wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, _net_ exporter. But we are often exporting at low or even negative prices.

That's right. Germany exports when the sun is shining and the prices are low to Switzerland and Austria who use it to pump water up the Alps. When there is no sun in Germany, they buy it back at a high price from Switzerland and Austria who convert the stored water to electricity.

Or, in other words, they hire some battery services?

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#284

Post by p_l »

pfdietz wrote: post #134
modo_mario wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Creating hydrogen with excess power is really inefficient energy wise and also tips the scales of cost a lot.

Only a fraction of the renewable output would have to be routed through hydrogen, though. It turns out this is still cheaper than new nuclear for providing "synthetic baseload" supply, especially if one looks at projections of how much renewables should cost in the time it would take for any new nuclear plant initiated today to come online.

Said "fraction", for moderately modest needs and assuming just 24h window where it provides "baseload" can be as "low" as 1/3rd of total renewable capacity - assuming that renewables do 100% of peak whiel saving the excess..

Or so analysis from people I know in the industry, interested in decarbonising (not fossil lobby related), show.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#287

Post by jacquesm »

PeterisP wrote: post #117
dan-robertson wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French generation is ~70% nuclear (10% wind/solar) and German is ~10% (~40% wind/solar). Yet their prices track each other closely. So I think this explanation is too simplistic. Possibly there are large interconnects between the French and German grids levelling out wholesale prices, but my assumption is that they cannot carry enough power for this imagined scenario where nuclear makes a big difference.

There's no "French and German grids", most of EU is a single grid (see map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Continenta... ) and there's no meaningful difference between "interconnects" linking France and Germany and power lines within France, though there are a bit fewer of them than internal lines. There are some limited interconnects linking continental EU with UK and Scandinavia with some trade ha…

That may be so but there is a tremendous difference in quality and capacity to absorb fluctuations between the various interconnected national grids. At the physical level they are still very much separate.

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#288

Post by chess_buster »

jules wrote: post #124
adrianN wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wind and solar are pretty cheap and storage keeps getting cheaper, that's why they make sense.

Batteries are so expensive that it is unclear whether they will ever solve the large scale storage problem: yes they're getting cheaper, but they have to continue to get cheaper for a long time before they're suitable, and it's unclear whether fundamental limits will be hit before that. If battery technology improves to the extent that it becomes viable for large scale storage, then wind and solar can become our main…

Hydrogen, molten salt to drive ex-coal plants, redox-flow, …

Re: Why has the price of electricity in Europe reached record highs?

#289

Post by p_l »

tomtheelder wrote: post #270
giantg2 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also need to be using up to date data about reactor designs that are safer rather than the older and more dangerous ones (eg FAST, slow wave).

Although I'm generally pro more nuclear, this argument isn't massively compelling to me. The failed reactors of the past were considered safe when they were built.

The two large scale events involved a) known problematic design with a lot bad process (Chernobyl, the RBMK, and especially the condition into which the overall system was put before start of the event, would have failed a safety inspection under then-current Soviet rules) b) a plant where owners ignored multiple reports about dangers of tsunami capable of overcoming the defenses, and ultimately failed to contain due to loss of power to run the pumps (especially since all reactors scammed in the area). Again, failing requirements to keep running safely.
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